Re: Quick Salt Question

[Guest guest]

It varies somewhat depending upon your personal activity level... 500 mG

sounds pretty low (SA 2-2.5G). Of course they add salt to just about every

processed food but if your preparing your own meals yourself, it's easy to

get inadequate sodium.

Unless you have high blood pressure you are correct to be concerned about

not enough rather than too much. Several folks on the other list have

encountered problems (low energy) from deficiency.

If you exercise vigorously, or sweat a lot, you need to replace that lost

salt.

I use sea salt and iodized salt alternately in recipes.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: annie_fox [mailto:annie_fox@...]

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:44 AM

Subject: [ ] Quick Salt Question

Hi there,

I'm not too responsive to posts right now since I'm studying for

finals, but I have on quick question.

How much salt do we actually need each day? I checked, and

many days I get under 500 mg. I got out of the habit of salting my

food a while ago, and am not eating a lot of processed foods, so

my diet just doesn't have a lot of salt. In general, I know that is a

good thing, but, then again, there is some amount that must be

needed. Anyone have any clue?

Thanks,

Annie

[Guest guest]

The answer is no one has a clue to the exact number. I had to reduce to 1250 +/-250 mg to control my blood pressure so I have a feeling I don't need more than that. If you read a lot of articles and texts you'll find the number varies from 100 mg to 10 grams - TWO orders of magnitude. That in itself says no one has a handle on the exact number. Studies of a common people one part living on the coast and another inland with virtually no access to salt, show the inlanders to suffer less heart disease. There are other examples, but suffice it to say if you get too low in intake, you may experience some effects from too high a potassium to sodium ratio. I have read the ratio should be 4 K/Na. I hypothesize that if we have ratios for other minerals and ingest those in the right ratio, we'll do ok, but that's just my take. I've been as low as 500 mg and felt it wasn't enough for the K I was eating which is about 4500 mg to 6500 mg. Too much K will cause loose bowels to rid it. Not enough K will give sore muscles and joints (my experience).

I shoot for 1.25 +/- .25 based on my estimation that BP is all important.

BTW, I have a sis-in-law who has eaten low sodium for years (she's 81yo) and looks like 55yo. She takes no drugs and has no health probs. Eats about 800-1000 kcals. She can run up the stairs.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: annie_fox

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:43 AM

Subject: [ ] Quick Salt Question

Hi there,I'm not too responsive to posts right now since I'm studying for finals, but I have on quick question.How much salt do we actually need each day? I checked, and many days I get under 500 mg. I got out of the habit of salting my food a while ago, and am not eating a lot of processed foods, so my diet just doesn't have a lot of salt. In general, I know that is a good thing, but, then again, there is some amount that must be needed. Anyone have any clue?Thanks,Annie

[Guest guest]

Check out The Grain and Salt Society (<www.celtic-seasalt.com>) for some

info on salt. I learned about Celtic Sea Salt from reading

Nourishing Traditions and now I have converted to unrefined sea salt and

would never touch refined salt again. As far as I understand, the balance

of sodium and potassium is crucial, and most nutrient-dense diets are

loaded with potassium, so a gram or two of salt per day is probably not

only okay, but a good idea. I've never added salt to food and I don't

mind eating a low-salt diet, but lately i've been preparing more fermented

veggies, which typically involve moderate amounts of salt and are extremely

important foods. I also get salt that naturally occurs in sea veggies.

I think that salt is an important food if the source is chosen carefully and it

has plenty of

trace minerals in it. I'm learning that it is not only nutritionally

valuable, but makes my food taste better! If you're getting less than

500mg then my guess is that you're not getting enough sea meat, sea veggies,

or fermented veggies, all part of traditional healthy diets.

Mike

> Hi there,

>

> I'm not too responsive to posts right now since I'm studying for

> finals, but I have on quick question.

>

> How much salt do we actually need each day? I checked, and

> many days I get under 500 mg. I got out of the habit of salting my

> food a while ago, and am not eating a lot of processed foods, so

> my diet just doesn't have a lot of salt. In general, I know that is a

> good thing, but, then again, there is some amount that must be

> needed. Anyone have any clue?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Annie

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with that nobody seems to know although it's acknowledged that

with the typical SAD diet, people ingest too much. I eat canned salmon, and

if you eat anything from a can, you get enough salt. For vegetarians or

vegans, if you include Nori (seaweed), you'll get enough. Nori is available

in a " sprinkle-on food " salt-like form which can be used in place of salt.

on 5/6/2003 4:43 AM, annie_fox at annie_fox@... wrote:

> Hi there,

>

> I'm not too responsive to posts right now since I'm studying for

> finals, but I have on quick question.

>

> How much salt do we actually need each day? I checked, and

> many days I get under 500 mg. I got out of the habit of salting my

> food a while ago, and am not eating a lot of processed foods, so

> my diet just doesn't have a lot of salt. In general, I know that is a

> good thing, but, then again, there is some amount that must be

> needed. Anyone have any clue?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

just let me say I think my salt restriction doesn't impact my exercise at all. When I sweat a lot, my sweat has very little sodium, so low I can hardly taste it (and I do check it). Replacing sodium is so easy - remember the food labels usually show the amount added, There is a background level of sodium in everything. The RDA of 2.4 gm or so is a max number - most can tolerate it, but it has no scientific basis that I've found. The new numbers for HTNer's of course is lower 1.4, and if they can do it everyone can.

Now if you're a marine who will march 8 hrs with a 200 # pack and well clothed you'll need maybe some salt maybe, but mostly water for cooling. Nobody exercising can carry that much water. Eating salt will allow you to store more water temporarily.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:03 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Quick Salt Question

It varies somewhat depending upon your personal activity level... 500 mGsounds pretty low (SA 2-2.5G). Of course they add salt to just about everyprocessed food but if your preparing your own meals yourself, it's easy toget inadequate sodium.Unless you have high blood pressure you are correct to be concerned aboutnot enough rather than too much. Several folks on the other list haveencountered problems (low energy) from deficiency.If you exercise vigorously, or sweat a lot, you need to replace that lostsalt.I use sea salt and iodized salt alternately in recipes.JR

[Guest guest]

Popular nutrition for the masses suffers from the either this food is good or it's bad mind set. Salt over a fairly wide range of consumption is well tolerated and not harmful.

It has become popular in discussion about high blood pressure but IMO not as a causative factor but as a modulator as salt helps fluid retention, more fluid volume= more BP.

I have the fairly unusual (at least I don't hear about it much) situation of pretty low BP. A few weeks ago I noticed some light headedness upon quickly rising from a reclining position on my couch. Just for the heck of it I dragged out my old BP monitor and measured a well below normal 87/58.... The next morning I logged a more reasonable 100/70, so these days I actually make a point of adding salt to my diet.

From a quick internet search I couldn't find much danger from low BP except for maybe inadequate blood flow to the brain... hey that explains a lot :-)

IMO if you have high BP watch your salt intake, if you don't, I wouldn't worry to much about it. It's hard but possible to not get enough, your body will usually just dump any excess.

JR

PS you are quite correct that our bodies store and recover far more salt than we lose, but we do lose some from extreme exercise and this probably varies by individual. While I don't get too nervous if my sweat isn't very salty while I'm out running, I do get concerned if I'm hot and not sweating.....

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Quick Salt Question

Hi ,

just let me say I think my salt restriction doesn't impact my exercise at all. When I sweat a lot, my sweat has very little sodium, so low I can hardly taste it (and I do check it). Replacing sodium is so easy - remember the food labels usually show the amount added, There is a background level of sodium in everything. The RDA of 2.4 gm or so is a max number - most can tolerate it, but it has no scientific basis that I've found. The new numbers for HTNer's of course is lower 1.4, and if they can do it everyone can.

Now if you're a marine who will march 8 hrs with a 200 # pack and well clothed you'll need maybe some salt maybe, but mostly water for cooling. Nobody exercising can carry that much water. Eating salt will allow you to store more water temporarily.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:03 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Quick Salt Question

It varies somewhat depending upon your personal activity level... 500 mGsounds pretty low (SA 2-2.5G). Of course they add salt to just about everyprocessed food but if your preparing your own meals yourself, it's easy toget inadequate sodium.Unless you have high blood pressure you are correct to be concerned aboutnot enough rather than too much. Several folks on the other list haveencountered problems (low energy) from deficiency.If you exercise vigorously, or sweat a lot, you need to replace that lostsalt.I use sea salt and iodized salt alternately in recipes.JR

[Guest guest]

What you say is mostly true, but the point is that salt is about the only thing added to food that never needed approval. We don't know that it doesn't cause HTN or other things - those tests will probably never be done - we can only infer by looking at peoples who don't eat added salt. There are at present 16828 sodium and hypertension articles and if you read them they will tell you little what to eat or not eat. It's simply not defined. I don't think sodium CAUSES HTN - I'm not so sure about secondary or long term effects. I do know for sure we won't get people to change their diets/life style for the most part - it's too ingrained and too habitual. I really think if we knew the optimum ratios of minerals, we'd have a better idea why sodium is so effective in controlling high BP.

I know the kidney reacts to serum sodium, but it's not known why it doesn't draw sodium out of a store of 600 grams to raise BP, when it wants to raise it. And that isn't even clear. There are at least two schools of thought - one says the kidney senses an aging heart and needing more flow raises the sodium to increase BP. The other says the kidney is failing to extract enough of the retained sodium. WTHDIK? I just think if I needed to add anything, I would add it but not otherwise. But salt is probably the least of my worries about added stuff in food. BTW, by experiment I think my sodium req't is 1.25 +/- .25 gms, to control muscle pain, balance the potassium, and hold enough water in feces to avoid constipation.

One other thing, next time I go into a hosp for a test requiring an iv, I'll eat some salt to inflate the veins so they won't push that dam needle thru the bones.

BTW, on low fat diet I don't sweat that much in 98deg weather.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 11:33 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Quick Salt Question

Popular nutrition for the masses suffers from the either this food is good or it's bad mind set. Salt over a fairly wide range of consumption is well tolerated and not harmful.

It has become popular in discussion about high blood pressure but IMO not as a causative factor but as a modulator as salt helps fluid retention, more fluid volume= more BP.

I have the fairly unusual (at least I don't hear about it much) situation of pretty low BP. A few weeks ago I noticed some light headedness upon quickly rising from a reclining position on my couch. Just for the heck of it I dragged out my old BP monitor and measured a well below normal 87/58.... The next morning I logged a more reasonable 100/70, so these days I actually make a point of adding salt to my diet.

From a quick internet search I couldn't find much danger from low BP except for maybe inadequate blood flow to the brain... hey that explains a lot :-)

IMO if you have high BP watch your salt intake, if you don't, I wouldn't worry to much about it. It's hard but possible to not get enough, your body will usually just dump any excess.

JR

PS you are quite correct that our bodies store and recover far more salt than we lose, but we do lose some from extreme exercise and this probably varies by individual. While I don't get too nervous if my sweat isn't very salty while I'm out running, I do get concerned if I'm hot and not sweating.....

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Quick Salt Question

Hi ,

just let me say I think my salt restriction doesn't impact my exercise at all. When I sweat a lot, my sweat has very little sodium, so low I can hardly taste it (and I do check it). Replacing sodium is so easy - remember the food labels usually show the amount added, There is a background level of sodium in everything. The RDA of 2.4 gm or so is a max number - most can tolerate it, but it has no scientific basis that I've found. The new numbers for HTNer's of course is lower 1.4, and if they can do it everyone can.

Now if you're a marine who will march 8 hrs with a 200 # pack and well clothed you'll need maybe some salt maybe, but mostly water for cooling. Nobody exercising can carry that much water. Eating salt will allow you to store more water temporarily.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:03 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Quick Salt Question

It varies somewhat depending upon your personal activity level... 500 mGsounds pretty low (SA 2-2.5G). Of course they add salt to just about everyprocessed food but if your preparing your own meals yourself, it's easy toget inadequate sodium.Unless you have high blood pressure you are correct to be concerned aboutnot enough rather than too much. Several folks on the other list haveencountered problems (low energy) from deficiency.If you exercise vigorously, or sweat a lot, you need to replace that lostsalt.I use sea salt and iodized salt alternately in recipes.JR

[Guest guest]

I also have low blood pressure (around 90-100/50-60) and have been

told that it's a marker of being very healthy. The only concern is

that in some people low blood pressure can cause them to faint when

they rise from a reclining position. I do get lightheaded from

rising, and my doctor has recommended I increase my salt intake if I

start to experience real problems from it. BTW, I already consume a

fair amount of salt -- around 3g, mostly from soups and soy sauces.

I haven't increased my salt intake, but I don't restrict it either.

- Robin

> I have the fairly unusual (at least I don't hear about it much)

situation of

> pretty low BP. A few weeks ago I noticed some light headedness

upon quickly

> rising from a reclining position on my couch. Just for the heck of

it I

> dragged out my old BP monitor and measured a well below normal

87/58.... The

> next morning I logged a more reasonable 100/70, so these days I

actually

> make a point of adding salt to my diet.

>

> From a quick internet search I couldn't find much danger from low

BP except

> for maybe inadequate blood flow to the brain... hey that explains

a lot :-)

>

> IMO if you have high BP watch your salt intake, if you don't, I

wouldn't

> worry to much about it. It's hard but possible to not get enough,

your body

> will usually just dump any excess.

>

> JR

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, and btw -- my sodium to potassium balance is about 1:1.

> > I have the fairly unusual (at least I don't hear about it much)

> situation of

> > pretty low BP. A few weeks ago I noticed some light headedness

> upon quickly

> > rising from a reclining position on my couch. Just for the heck

of

> it I

> > dragged out my old BP monitor and measured a well below normal

> 87/58.... The

> > next morning I logged a more reasonable 100/70, so these days I

> actually

> > make a point of adding salt to my diet.

> >

> > From a quick internet search I couldn't find much danger from

low

> BP except

> > for maybe inadequate blood flow to the brain... hey that

explains

> a lot :-)

> >

> > IMO if you have high BP watch your salt intake, if you don't, I

> wouldn't

> > worry to much about it. It's hard but possible to not get

enough,

> your body

> > will usually just dump any excess.

> >

> > JR

> >

[Guest guest]

Where do you get the 4:1 ratio for K/Na? I've never heard a

recommendation below 1:1 ... is there some evidence that a lower

ratio has additional benefits?

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

There are other examples, but suffice it to say if you get too low

in intake, you may experience some effects from too high a potassium

to sodium ratio. I have read the ratio should be 4 K/Na.

[Guest guest]

Hi.

There are several lines that reinforce a high K/Na ratio. 4 to 1 is the

ratio suggested by D. , M.D., PH.D.

He coauthored one book some years ago, and fairly recently wrote The High

Blood Pressure Solution, Natural Prevention and Cure with the K factor.

His work significantly pre dates the Dash Diet, and his program is somewhat

more stringent than the Dash diet which has demonstrated clearly that a

diet high in potassium in the form of foods has a bp lowering effect, and

that controlling sodium to about 1500 mg daily causes an additional and very

significant reduction in bp. The ratio in the Dash Diet is 3/1, that is, in

the sodium reduced version. 's epidemiological evidence shows

benefits accuring at a much lower ratio than 4/1, but he is talking to

people who are ill and states that keeping the K factor to 4/1 or better

consistently lowers bp, and even when it does not lower bp significantly

the animal research demonstrates that there is important protection against

stroke, etc.

provides detailed information for the biochemists that are interested

in that kind of information. He actually started as a research scientist

with an interest in insulin, and was attracted to this closely related

subject with a special interest in intracellular sodium and potassium and

their effect on the sodium pumps and cellular wall permeability, etc.

The net result is that a high K/Na ratio is good for almost everyone.

There seem to be exceptions to everything, and probably to this, too.

If you want more detail, I suggest you get a copy of the book. The cover

looks like it's another attempt to defraud the public, but such is not the

case. The publisher is Healing Arts Press, One Park Street, Rochester,

Vermont 05767.

Ed S.

----- Original Message -----

From: " r061n " <r061n@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:07 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

> Where do you get the 4:1 ratio for K/Na? I've never heard a

> recommendation below 1:1 ... is there some evidence that a lower

> ratio has additional benefits?

>

>

> There are other examples, but suffice it to say if you get too low

> in intake, you may experience some effects from too high a potassium

> to sodium ratio. I have read the ratio should be 4 K/Na.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Somebody wrote a book called the k factor which set me thinking. Eating 4+ gms of K per day, of course wouldn't allow me a 1:1 ratio. Where do you get the 1:1 ratio? I've never been able to justify any ratio other than looking at what occurs in foods and the effect on my BP. My experience is - too much K without a sodium balance of no more than 6 to 1 K/Na will cause me to dump a lot of feces. Of course too much sodium at once is an automatic dump - like a tsp of salt (2.4 gms sodium) in a glass of water. Alan Pater is the only one I've heard mention a 1:1.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: r061n

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:07 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Where do you get the 4:1 ratio for K/Na? I've never heard a recommendation below 1:1 ... is there some evidence that a lower ratio has additional benefits?There are other examples, but suffice it to say if you get too low in intake, you may experience some effects from too high a potassium to sodium ratio. I have read the ratio should be 4 K/Na.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Ed,

That's the book I read some years ago and I couldn't find a lot wrong with it as I recall.

Let me say also that a large percentage of folks like 35% will experience HTN as they grow older. It is thought that CR - keeping weight at nominal - will prevent/delay HTN, but the basic mechanism for most people is that BP rises due to age. Part of that is aging and part is a gene that makes 35% more susceptible to weight increase/atherosclerosis, whatever. So I think sodium is more important to most people - not just "salt-sensitive" people.

Stroke is Number 3.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Sullivan

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:51 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Hi.There are several lines that reinforce a high K/Na ratio. 4 to 1 is theratio suggested by D. , M.D., PH.D.He coauthored one book some years ago, and fairly recently wrote The HighBlood Pressure Solution, Natural Prevention and Cure with the K factor.His work significantly pre dates the Dash Diet, and his program is somewhatmore stringent than the Dash diet which has demonstrated clearly that adiet high in potassium in the form of foods has a bp lowering effect, andthat controlling sodium to about 1500 mg daily causes an additional and verysignificant reduction in bp. The ratio in the Dash Diet is 3/1, that is, inthe sodium reduced version. 's epidemiological evidence showsbenefits accuring at a much lower ratio than 4/1, but he is talking topeople who are ill and states that keeping the K factor to 4/1 or betterconsistently lowers bp, and even when it does not lower bp significantlythe animal research demonstrates that there is important protection againststroke, etc. provides detailed information for the biochemists that are interestedin that kind of information. He actually started as a research scientistwith an interest in insulin, and was attracted to this closely relatedsubject with a special interest in intracellular sodium and potassium andtheir effect on the sodium pumps and cellular wall permeability, etc.The net result is that a high K/Na ratio is good for almost everyone.There seem to be exceptions to everything, and probably to this, too.If you want more detail, I suggest you get a copy of the book. The coverlooks like it's another attempt to defraud the public, but such is not thecase. The publisher is Healing Arts Press, One Park Street, Rochester,Vermont 05767.Ed S.

[Guest guest]

Sodium may be important to "most" people, with 30% of the population obese, but perhaps not people who follow healthful dietary and exercise practices.

When I was younger and overweight, I saw my BP creep up to 135+/95+.... now at 54 I make a point of adding salt to some recipes as my BP is uncomfortably low...

I am not severely restricted (if at all, BMI = 22.5), but the combination of weight loss on top of running 15 miles a week has dramatically lowered my BP to the point where I occasionally experience dizziness upon rising too rapidly.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Thanks Ed,

That's the book I read some years ago and I couldn't find a lot wrong with it as I recall.

Let me say also that a large percentage of folks like 35% will experience HTN as they grow older. It is thought that CR - keeping weight at nominal - will prevent/delay HTN, but the basic mechanism for most people is that BP rises due to age. Part of that is aging and part is a gene that makes 35% more susceptible to weight increase/atherosclerosis, whatever. So I think sodium is more important to most people - not just "salt-sensitive" people.

Stroke is Number 3.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Sullivan

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:51 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Hi.There are several lines that reinforce a high K/Na ratio. 4 to 1 is theratio suggested by D. , M.D., PH.D.He coauthored one book some years ago, and fairly recently wrote The HighBlood Pressure Solution, Natural Prevention and Cure with the K factor.His work significantly pre dates the Dash Diet, and his program is somewhatmore stringent than the Dash diet which has demonstrated clearly that adiet high in potassium in the form of foods has a bp lowering effect, andthat controlling sodium to about 1500 mg daily causes an additional and verysignificant reduction in bp. The ratio in the Dash Diet is 3/1, that is, inthe sodium reduced version. 's epidemiological evidence showsbenefits accuring at a much lower ratio than 4/1, but he is talking topeople who are ill and states that keeping the K factor to 4/1 or betterconsistently lowers bp, and even when it does not lower bp significantlythe animal research demonstrates that there is important protection againststroke, etc. provides detailed information for the biochemists that are interestedin that kind of information. He actually started as a research scientistwith an interest in insulin, and was attracted to this closely relatedsubject with a special interest in intracellular sodium and potassium andtheir effect on the sodium pumps and cellular wall permeability, etc.The net result is that a high K/Na ratio is good for almost everyone.There seem to be exceptions to everything, and probably to this, too.If you want more detail, I suggest you get a copy of the book. The coverlooks like it's another attempt to defraud the public, but such is not thecase. The publisher is Healing Arts Press, One Park Street, Rochester,Vermont 05767.Ed S.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Yours is an interesting case. I've never talked to someone with low BP. There is such a thing as hyponatremia - not sure if that causes low BP. How much sodium do you think is in your diet?

I walk about 12 miles per week - can't run yet - well not over 1200 feet. But I can walk as fast as 4.2 mph. Average 53 min per mile for 3 miles (10% grade). I only took up walking after losing 55#. Still 20# to lose. I want to lose about 1# per year for 30 yrs (67yo).

Anyway, I hit a plateau for BP dropping at about 175#.

Looks like you caught yours at the right time.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 12:10 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Sodium may be important to "most" people, with 30% of the population obese, but perhaps not people who follow healthful dietary and exercise practices.

When I was younger and overweight, I saw my BP creep up to 135+/95+.... now at 54 I make a point of adding salt to some recipes as my BP is uncomfortably low...

I am not severely restricted (if at all, BMI = 22.5), but the combination of weight loss on top of running 15 miles a week has dramatically lowered my BP to the point where I occasionally experience dizziness upon rising too rapidly.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Thanks Ed,

That's the book I read some years ago and I couldn't find a lot wrong with it as I recall.

Let me say also that a large percentage of folks like 35% will experience HTN as they grow older. It is thought that CR - keeping weight at nominal - will prevent/delay HTN, but the basic mechanism for most people is that BP rises due to age. Part of that is aging and part is a gene that makes 35% more susceptible to weight increase/atherosclerosis, whatever. So I think sodium is more important to most people - not just "salt-sensitive" people.

Stroke is Number 3.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Sullivan

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:51 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Hi.There are several lines that reinforce a high K/Na ratio. 4 to 1 is theratio suggested by D. , M.D., PH.D.He coauthored one book some years ago, and fairly recently wrote The HighBlood Pressure Solution, Natural Prevention and Cure with the K factor.His work significantly pre dates the Dash Diet, and his program is somewhatmore stringent than the Dash diet which has demonstrated clearly that adiet high in potassium in the form of foods has a bp lowering effect, andthat controlling sodium to about 1500 mg daily causes an additional and verysignificant reduction in bp. The ratio in the Dash Diet is 3/1, that is, inthe sodium reduced version. 's epidemiological evidence showsbenefits accuring at a much lower ratio than 4/1, but he is talking topeople who are ill and states that keeping the K factor to 4/1 or betterconsistently lowers bp, and even when it does not lower bp significantlythe animal research demonstrates that there is important protection againststroke, etc. provides detailed information for the biochemists that are interestedin that kind of information. He actually started as a research scientistwith an interest in insulin, and was attracted to this closely relatedsubject with a special interest in intracellular sodium and potassium andtheir effect on the sodium pumps and cellular wall permeability, etc.The net result is that a high K/Na ratio is good for almost everyone.There seem to be exceptions to everything, and probably to this, too.If you want more detail, I suggest you get a copy of the book. The coverlooks like it's another attempt to defraud the public, but such is not thecase. The publisher is Healing Arts Press, One Park Street, Rochester,Vermont 05767.Ed S.

[Guest guest]

According to dwidp about 1700 mG, but I have also started sprinkling (sea) salt on my evening bowl of popcorn. I'd estimate consumption at 2.5-3 G daily. I pretty much eat zero processed food. I also add KCl 1:1 to NaCl in recipes I consume regularly (like Sherm's muffins & brownies).

In addition to running, I also lift 3x and play basketball 2x,,, so I suspect I lose my share of salt in perspiration.

I don't know if this indicates anything but it seems since further cleaning up my diet, and losing quite a bit of weight, I very rarely wake up with salty crud in my eyes..... maybe one morning every two weeks, as compared to most mornings in my old ad-lib days. I wonder if this is a path for dumping excess salt, or perhaps I just stopped crying in my sleep :-)

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Hi ,

Yours is an interesting case. I've never talked to someone with low BP. There is such a thing as hyponatremia - not sure if that causes low BP. How much sodium do you think is in your diet?

I walk about 12 miles per week - can't run yet - well not over 1200 feet. But I can walk as fast as 4.2 mph. Average 53 min per mile for 3 miles (10% grade). I only took up walking after losing 55#. Still 20# to lose. I want to lose about 1# per year for 30 yrs (67yo).

Anyway, I hit a plateau for BP dropping at about 175#.

Looks like you caught yours at the right time.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 12:10 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Sodium may be important to "most" people, with 30% of the population obese, but perhaps not people who follow healthful dietary and exercise practices.

When I was younger and overweight, I saw my BP creep up to 135+/95+.... now at 54 I make a point of adding salt to some recipes as my BP is uncomfortably low...

I am not severely restricted (if at all, BMI = 22.5), but the combination of weight loss on top of running 15 miles a week has dramatically lowered my BP to the point where I occasionally experience dizziness upon rising too rapidly.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Thanks Ed,

That's the book I read some years ago and I couldn't find a lot wrong with it as I recall.

Let me say also that a large percentage of folks like 35% will experience HTN as they grow older. It is thought that CR - keeping weight at nominal - will prevent/delay HTN, but the basic mechanism for most people is that BP rises due to age. Part of that is aging and part is a gene that makes 35% more susceptible to weight increase/atherosclerosis, whatever. So I think sodium is more important to most people - not just "salt-sensitive" people.

Stroke is Number 3.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Sullivan

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:51 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Hi.There are several lines that reinforce a high K/Na ratio. 4 to 1 is theratio suggested by D. , M.D., PH.D.He coauthored one book some years ago, and fairly recently wrote The HighBlood Pressure Solution, Natural Prevention and Cure with the K factor.His work significantly pre dates the Dash Diet, and his program is somewhatmore stringent than the Dash diet which has demonstrated clearly that adiet high in potassium in the form of foods has a bp lowering effect, andthat controlling sodium to about 1500 mg daily causes an additional and verysignificant reduction in bp. The ratio in the Dash Diet is 3/1, that is, inthe sodium reduced version. 's epidemiological evidence showsbenefits accuring at a much lower ratio than 4/1, but he is talking topeople who are ill and states that keeping the K factor to 4/1 or betterconsistently lowers bp, and even when it does not lower bp significantlythe animal research demonstrates that there is important protection againststroke, etc. provides detailed information for the biochemists that are interestedin that kind of information. He actually started as a research scientistwith an interest in insulin, and was attracted to this closely relatedsubject with a special interest in intracellular sodium and potassium andtheir effect on the sodium pumps and cellular wall permeability, etc.The net result is that a high K/Na ratio is good for almost everyone.There seem to be exceptions to everything, and probably to this, too.If you want more detail, I suggest you get a copy of the book. The coverlooks like it's another attempt to defraud the public, but such is not thecase. The publisher is Healing Arts Press, One Park Street, Rochester,Vermont 05767.Ed S.

[Guest guest]

Yes.

Walford comments that lab animals on a high sodium diet live shorter lives than controls, although they don't necessarily die of cv related conditions.

Those people who follow a faith-based paleo diet will note that the paleo diet was estimated to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20/1. Some fish, and most meat (without seasoning, of course) come in somewhere around 2/1 to 4.5/1. Of course beef is provided with salt, and cows are encouraged to eat salt...so they tell me...so contemporary animal flesh may have a lower k/Na ratio than in days of old.

Ed S.

----- Original Message -----

From: jwwright

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Thanks Ed,

That's the book I read some years ago and I couldn't find a lot wrong with it as I recall.

Let me say also that a large percentage of folks like 35% will experience HTN as they grow older. It is thought that CR - keeping weight at nominal - will prevent/delay HTN, but the basic mechanism for most people is that BP rises due to age. Part of that is aging and part is a gene that makes 35% more susceptible to weight increase/atherosclerosis, whatever. So I think sodium is more important to most people - not just "salt-sensitive" people.

Stroke is Number 3.

Regards.

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone!

I had no idea that too little salt could cause loose stools, and I had been

wondering for about a week why I was having a problem with that. I've also

been lower in energy than I like, but, hey, it's finals period, so that is not

unexpected.

Anyway, after reading your replies, I raised my salt intake to a bit over a gram

per day (leaving me with about a 2.5:1 K:Na ratio), and my stools improved

greatly. As for energy...well, it's hard to tell this week.

I guess I know that I need to keep my salt intake up around a gram, and that

dropping consistently to half of that is a bad thing for me, at least for the

time

being. It's good to have my stomach settled down again. :-)

- Annie

[Guest guest]

FWIW, what I ended up doing was to take my USDA database of foods and average the mineral content for each of the listed minerals and compare those to sodium to get a mineral to sodium ratio. Of course I deleted duplicates and those foods with added sodium. Those values I posted next to the RDA for each mineral and voila - they looked a lot alike. I figure the RDA folks used the same technique. Not a req'ts definition but it was the only technique I could use to evaluate the large variance in sodium rec's. In the end I just chose to not use any, and I discovered that foods tasted differently without the salt. Suddenly I could actually taste the mild flavors in steamed potatoes, squash, etc.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Sullivan

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:04 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Yes.

Walford comments that lab animals on a high sodium diet live shorter lives than controls, although they don't necessarily die of cv related conditions.

Those people who follow a faith-based paleo diet will note that the paleo diet was estimated to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20/1. Some fish, and most meat (without seasoning, of course) come in somewhere around 2/1 to 4.5/1. Of course beef is provided with salt, and cows are encouraged to eat salt...so they tell me...so contemporary animal flesh may have a lower k/Na ratio than in days of old.

Ed S.

----- Original Message -----

From: jwwright

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Quick Salt Question

Thanks Ed,

That's the book I read some years ago and I couldn't find a lot wrong with it as I recall.

Let me say also that a large percentage of folks like 35% will experience HTN as they grow older. It is thought that CR - keeping weight at nominal - will prevent/delay HTN, but the basic mechanism for most people is that BP rises due to age. Part of that is aging and part is a gene that makes 35% more susceptible to weight increase/atherosclerosis, whatever. So I think sodium is more important to most people - not just "salt-sensitive" people.

Stroke is Number 3.

Regards.