Re: Re: more on depression

[Guest guest]

Twas Writ:

>VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...> wrote :

>

> " ..rather shameful, but evidently few feel it, shame and the like...we allow

>corporations to use the land as testing grounds for " bioengineered "

>crops/seeds in the name of " feeding the hungry " when the bottom line is,

>well, the bottom line (money honey)...

>

>If firms were unable to profit from their behaviour, then where is the

incentive to do anything at all? Who will fund R & D? You?

it's not the profit per se that bother me, it's the lack of punishment, the

lack of responsiblity...you, as an economist, will realize that

corporations came into existence just to avoid this: one cannot " destroy " a

corporation for wrongdoing (it can be done, but pulling a corporate charter

is harder than electing a president...fairly, i might add) because a

corporation is considered a " entity " in and of itself while stockholders

cannot be held liable, and rarely, except for a scapegoat or two, are

employees held liable of any wrong doings...this gives the " incentive " to

do whatever is necessary to make a profit, damn the consequences, because

in reality, the consequences are relatively few, if any...

but profit, on the other hand, is getting quite ridiculous in some areas,

obvious by the rapid rise of CEOs bringing home 7, 8 figures...absurd if

not, dare i say, immoral...

>Sure this is not a perfect world. 15 mins may not be enough to treat a

depressed patient, but blaming the all the ills of the world on capitalism

is unhelpful, especially given that the socialist system has demonstrably

failed. Perhaps we should devolve back to feudalism?

feudalism, no, and i assume you're talking about soviet-style socialism

which indeed did fail, but socialism, generally speaking, is not dead, no,

at least not theoretically <g>...much could be learned from the theory(s),

though: the general view that individual needs and looking out for one

another are good things, while selfishness is not necessarily good for the

common good...capitalism, though, cannot exist without that selfishness,

without that greed, for it is the heart of the capitalist...in moderation,

greed may indeed be a good thing, promote competition and get things done,

but out of control, with no one around to smack some arses, if not snap a

neck or two, capitalism, consumerism, become a drug, a disease, quite

contageous, quite dangerous...

in short, the capitalist system, as it is, has yet proved to be a " winner " ...

and you know, marx said that capitalism was merely a step before socialism,

no?

but i'll shut up. my apologies.

Rael64

don mutchler

[Guest guest]

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

it's not the profit per se that bother me, it's the lack of punishment, the

lack of responsiblity...you, as an economist, will realize that

corporations came into existence just to avoid this: one cannot " destroy " a

corporation for wrongdoing (it can be done, but pulling a corporate charter

is harder than electing a president...fairly, i might add) because a

corporation is considered a " entity " in and of itself while stockholders

cannot be held liable, and rarely, except for a scapegoat or two, are

employees held liable of any wrong doings...this gives the " incentive " to

do whatever is necessary to make a profit, damn the consequences, because

in reality, the consequences are relatively few, if any...

*** The emergence of corporations is quite an interesting area and there is some

merit to your comments. Whilst a full discussion is too off-topic for a group

such as this one, you should note that directors can and are often sued for

negligence, whilst there are typically corporate watchdogs who deal with

companies who continue to trade whilst insolvent and various other breaches of

'company law'. Stockholders bear risk and may lose the value of their stocks.

For example, in Australia, the major airlines have known about a condition

called 'deep vein thrombosis' (or 'economy-class' syndrome) which sees some

people who sit in confined spaces for hours at a time developing blood clots in

their legs which can move to the lung and be fatal. Yet they never warned anyone

about this and now face a class action. What do you think will happen to the

values of the affected companies?

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

but profit, on the other hand, is getting quite ridiculous in some areas,

obvious by the rapid rise of CEOs bringing home 7, 8 figures...absurd if

not, dare i say, immoral...

*** Morality is what you make of it. I agree they are generally overpaid

relative to their contribution.

In an earlier post I responded :

>Sure this is not a perfect world. 15 mins may not be enough to treat a

depressed patient, but blaming the all the ills of the world on capitalism

is unhelpful, especially given that the socialist system has demonstrably

failed. Perhaps we should devolve back to feudalism?

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

feudalism, no, and i assume you're talking about soviet-style socialism

which indeed did fail, but socialism, generally speaking, is not dead, no,

at least not theoretically <g>

*** My comment about feudalism was not a serious one, though feudalism appears

to be the natural state of the world. It is true that socialism is not dead, but

it is barely breathing and never likely to succeed because it goes against human

nature. People are inherently selfish (to varying degrees). Political economy

will always guarantee the failure of any world-wide socialist uprising, though I

guess there will always be pockets of such.

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

....much could be learned from the theory(s),

though: the general view that individual needs and looking out for one

another are good things, while selfishness is not necessarily good for the

common good...capitalism, though, cannot exist without that selfishness,

without that greed, for it is the heart of the capitalist...in moderation,

greed may indeed be a good thing, promote competition and get things done,

but out of control, with no one around to smack some arses, if not snap a

neck or two, capitalism, consumerism, become a drug, a disease, quite

contageous, quite dangerous...

*** This is why there are anti-trust laws trying to prevent anti-competitive

conduct and not just against multi-national conglomerates but at different

levels.

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

in short, the capitalist system, as it is, has yet proved to be a " winner " ...

*** Of course it won. Do you think China is a winner? Is that why they decided

to embrace the market?

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

and you know, marx said that capitalism was merely a step before socialism,

no?

*** Marx said a lot of things. His ideas of the inevitable overthrow of

capitalism lack intellectual credibility. He was also a lousy mathematician.

Along with Engels he wrote a textbook on calculus (I forget the title) which

mucked up the basics. However given the era (19th century), he can be forgiven.

VoodooChile <raelsixty4@e...>

but i'll shut up. my apologies.

Rael64

don mutchler

*** Apology accepted!

Cheers,

_______________________

Mavromatis

Department of Economics

Monash University

AUSTRALIA

_______________________

Lady Astor: " Sir, if I were your wife I'd put poison in your coffee. "

Sir Winston: " Madam, if I were your husband I would drink it. "

" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the

inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. "

Winston Churchill.

[Guest guest]

This would be difficult to ascertain since there's the problem of people not

seeking help (especially men), not being diagnosed correctly etc. In years

gone by, there was much more of a stigma to any mental illness (and still is

with some people); as a result people don't readily admit to it even if they

know they have it. they always thought that it was more prevalent among

women, but now some think it's only because men don't readily admit/know

they have it.

on 6/17/2003 8:33 PM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote:

> I'm curious: is depression more prevalent than it was throughout history?

>

> -

[Guest guest]

My 90 yo neighbor was depressed. He wrecked his car, was told to quit driving by the judge who reduced his fine but took away his license. He had no mobility to get groceries and cooking is not his bag anyway. Now we've gotten the senior citizens to bring he and his wife hot meals each week day, a medicare nurse to check them once per week and another paid person to clean house twice per week. They don't want ot move in with children because they have problems too, and the environment would be totally different.

If he needs a ride to the dr or other we take him or he rides a seniors bus.

NOW he's not depressed. Depression is when folks can't see the solution to the prob and are unwilling to seek help or don't know there's help available.

My bro was depressed - talking about wills all the time - who will care for his wife, etc. He had congestive heart failure. Once I checked his BP - heard the missing beats I got him to the doc. That was 8 yrs ago. He's 79 now, still doing engr work in his home - complains of all the pills he has to take - but he's not depressed. Depression is also when the brain is not getting enough nutrients and O2.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Francesca Skelton

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 7:57 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: more on depression

This would be difficult to ascertain since there's the problem of people notseeking help (especially men), not being diagnosed correctly etc. In yearsgone by, there was much more of a stigma to any mental illness (and still iswith some people); as a result people don't readily admit to it even if theyknow they have it. they always thought that it was more prevalent amongwomen, but now some think it's only because men don't readily admit/knowthey have it.

[Guest guest]

It's not always that simple. Some problems can't be fixed so easily (for

example the current crummy U.S. economy). If you're out of a job, and

having trouble getting another, what then? Cheer up when you don't know if

you'll have a roof over your head? It's a complicated illness, and it's

not believed it's as much a physical imbalance as a " brooding over problems "

one. In fact sometimes young children and/or teens, who have no serious

problems to speak of, become depressed due to chemical imbalances. It's a

very big reason for teenage suicides.

on 6/18/2003 10:52 AM, jwwright at jwwright@... wrote:

> My 90 yo neighbor was depressed. He wrecked his car, was told to quit driving

> by the judge who reduced his fine but took away his license. He had no

> mobility to get groceries and cooking is not his bag anyway. Now we've gotten

> the senior citizens to bring he and his wife hot meals each week day, a

> medicare nurse to check them once per week and another paid person to clean

> house twice per week. They don't want ot move in with children because they

> have problems too, and the environment would be totally different.

> If he needs a ride to the dr or other we take him or he rides a seniors bus.

> NOW he's not depressed. Depression is when folks can't see the solution to the

> prob and are unwilling to seek help or don't know there's help available.

>

> My bro was depressed - talking about wills all the time - who will care for

> his wife, etc. He had congestive heart failure. Once I checked his BP - heard

> the missing beats I got him to the doc. That was 8 yrs ago. He's 79 now, still

> doing engr work in his home - complains of all the pills he has to take - but

> he's not depressed. Depression is also when the brain is not getting enough

> nutrients and O2.

>

> Regards.

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately this is the typical attitude of someone who's never

experienced a depression. Depression is A PHYSICAL illness, just as sure as

a broken arm - at least in many cases. Or a hormonal one. My doctor

related to me her own post-partum depression after the birth of her baby.

Because of the hormonal imbalance (and it can happen to anyone), she lost

massive amounts of weight, was hearing " voices " , and in other ways was

physically ill. As a result of that, and luckily her complete recovery,

she's much more sympathetic to patients who may be suffering from it.

on 6/18/2003 1:16 PM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote:

> " If you're out of a job, and

> having trouble getting another, what then? "

>

> I have no idea of how this would be put into application but the vast

> majority of people have to learn to be more 'in touch' with themselves

> and have a more positive outlook. I know that even in the worst

> circumstances I would never let myself get depressed: life's too damn

> short! That isn't to say people should go walking around singing while

> their financial situation is hell, simply that putting things into

> perspective might help.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

That's where I draw the line. I agree that alcoholism, drug addiction,

pedophilia and such are within the control of the individual; i.e. a person

can make a choice. Although once one is addicted, that's another story

since there are actual physical withdrawal unpleasantnesses.

But depression is not always within one's control.

on 6/18/2003 1:42 PM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote:

> 2 years ago I almost ended my own life from depression, should that

> put in perspective for you.

>

> I agree that depression is a disease and is of chemical nature. But in

> essence, so is everything else. I guess I don't view the world as a

> purely deterministic thing. I'd like to think we all have control of

> ourselves. If not alcholism, pedophilia and virtually everything else

> could be rationalized through scientific explanations.

>

> Just my 2C.

>

> -