Re: CR and body fat

[Guest guest]

> Quick question:

maintaining

> this bf% indefinitely. I'm sure going lower is a possib

ility, but I

Quick answer: OK. But you can go further. The minimum

body fat acceptable is 4-5%. This is still health.

An shock calorie restriction AL --> CR50 will

make you loose fat

very quick. You can do vigourous exercise to

avoid loosing muscles. But you should refeed yourself

thereafter. Otherwise you will starve to death.

> crucial marker of how much you're really restricted, ri

ght?

Right. The lower the BF, the higher the insulin

sensitivity.

The lower the glicogen, the higer the insulin

sensitivity.

In CR65 the animals drain all the energetic

resevers of the organism and what comes in is not

suficient to create new ones.

The longevity correlation with the body weight

(fat or muscles but muscles are better)

assuming adequate nutrition is briefly as folows:

body weight in adulthood maximum longevity

220 p (100) kg AL 80

154 p (70) kg CR30 (*) 100

110 p (55) kg CR50 (**) 120

88 p (40) kg CR60 (***) 150 (???)

(*) Diet to avoid obesity, the equivalent of monkey

trial of CR Males: 2000 kcal Females 1800

(**) Diet to reach 120. Males 1530. Females 1120.

(***)Not tested. A mark that only females can

reach (females live longer)

if they keep a minimum BMI of 18, Height 1,54 m and

caloric intake of 1000 if stated in childhood.

-- Gandhi

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[Guest guest]

: from what we know at this time, bf is not correlated with longevity.

Calorie reduction is and loss of bf is just a " side effect " of CRON. So

it's not so much about weight and the scale (although most of us are weight

concious and weigh ourselves regularly) . BTW, since you're only 17, you

may want to just adjust your diet for ON for now and not worry about

reducing calories til you're over 21.

on 6/14/2003 9:58 PM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote:

> Quick question:

>

> Would this be a good way to attempt CR:

>

> Lower caloric intake until reaching 10% bf then simply maintaining

> this bf% indefinitely. I'm sure going lower is a possibility, but I

> don't think I could handle it psychologically.

>

> Is the correlation between longevity and caloric restriction also

> related in part to bodyfat? It seems to me like this is really the

> crucial marker of how much you're really restricted, right?

>

> Any thoughts would be helpful; this is the approach I plan to try

> eventually as it seems the most practical/humane. I'm not sure what

> Walford says about this; I will try to read his book as soon as I can.

>

> Thanks,

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Gandhi,

" You can do vigourous exercise to

avoid loosing muscles "

You mean like weightlifting?

" The lower the BF, the higher the insulin sensitivity. "

Hmm, I suspected this as well. I'm curious: is this a well accepted

medical fact?

-

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca,

It seems fairly accepted that CRON leads to increases in longevity.

But I'm curious in knowing: what factor of CRON is directly

responsible for this? If we knew this, we could do this one thing

directly.

The best analogous situation I can come up with is weightlifting.

Suppose you notice that getting sore leads to increases in

strength/hypertrophy. Now, you might believe this correlation implies

that soreness causes these two physiological adaptations. However; it

is most likely the total work done (training volume) that results in

positive body alterations. Not too mention that extreme soreness

(perhaps like extreme CR) is not at all beneficial. The way I see it

CRON is sort of like soreness. When it comes to soreness we know that

(roughly) training volume is the key denominator... what is this key

denominator with CRON?

My thoughts:

1.) Increased insulin sensitivity

2.) Optimal vitamins, minerals, fiber, protein, EFAs, monounsaturated

fats, etc. (ie; the ON part)

3.) Adaptations which come with 'starvation'.

Perhaps the body simply has protective mechanisms (which result in

increased longevity) which appear under periods of starvation? Perhaps

if I were to eat nothing at all every few days that the benefits of CR

would reappear (no restriction is taking place--I'd eat more on

non-fasting days). Wasn't there a study about this in rats?

I guess my point is: it would be so much easier if we really knew the

key aspect of CRON that leads to longevity. Currently it almost feels

like walking in the dark. Certainly CRON works but perhaps there are

easier or more effective ways to go about it if we got to the heart of

the matter. In the same way that minimizing training soreness but

maximizing training volume would lead to greater strength gains over

time.

I'm not sure if I expressed myself coherently, I hope you see what I'm

saying.

BTW, can your body 'adapt' to periods of starvation? I tried a 400

calorie 1 day fast a few weeks ago and it was quite difficult. I had

headaches, feelings of wanting to puke, weakness. Is this a result of

the actual lack of calories or simply because my body is so

unnacustomed to it? I can't envisage prehistoric man lying helplessly

on the ground if deprived of food for a few days...

Thoughts?

-

[Guest guest]

hey paul,

re: posts about books and stuff and the " how does CR work? " stuff,

you really should read Walford's BT120YD. it's worth every penny and

deserves to be on your shelf. just don't take every last piece of

nutritional advice as the final word.

mike parker

[Guest guest]

comments inserted

-----Original Message-----

From: paultheo2000 [mailto:paultheo2000@...]

Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:50 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: CR and body fat

The best analogous situation I can come up with is weightlifting.

Suppose you notice that getting sore leads to increases in

strength/hypertrophy. Now, you might believe this correlation implies

that soreness causes these two physiological adaptations. However; it

is most likely the total work done (training volume) that results in

positive body alterations. Not too mention that extreme soreness

(perhaps like extreme CR) is not at all beneficial. The way I see it

CRON is sort of like soreness. When it comes to soreness we know that

(roughly) training volume is the key denominator... what is this key

denominator with CRON?

My thoughts:

1.) Increased insulin sensitivity

2.) Optimal vitamins, minerals, fiber, protein, EFAs, monounsaturated

fats, etc. (ie; the ON part)

3.) Adaptations which come with 'starvation'.

Perhaps the body simply has protective mechanisms (which result in

increased longevity) which appear under periods of starvation? Perhaps

if I were to eat nothing at all every few days that the benefits of CR

would reappear (no restriction is taking place--I'd eat more on

non-fasting days). Wasn't there a study about this in rats?

========

Yes, EOD (every other day) feeding.

===========

I guess my point is: it would be so much easier if we really knew the

key aspect of CRON that leads to longevity. Currently it almost feels

like walking in the dark. Certainly CRON works but perhaps there are

easier or more effective ways to go about it if we got to the heart of

the matter. In the same way that minimizing training soreness but

maximizing training volume would lead to greater strength gains over

time.

===========

Yes, that's the big question and thrust of much research. Lot's of theories

but AFAIK no definitive answer.

==========

I'm not sure if I expressed myself coherently, I hope you see what I'm

saying.

BTW, can your body 'adapt' to periods of starvation? I tried a 400

calorie 1 day fast a few weeks ago and it was quite difficult. I had

headaches, feelings of wanting to puke, weakness. Is this a result of

the actual lack of calories or simply because my body is so

unnacustomed to it? I can't envisage prehistoric man lying helplessly

on the ground if deprived of food for a few days...

Thoughts?

-

=================

Yes, your body can learn to adapt to periods of extreme energy restriction.

Since our bodies only store about 2-3000 kCal worth of glycogen (sugar) in

muscles and liver. Once that is consumed we shift to a pure fat metabolism

converting fat to ketones. One of the benefits of periodic fasting is that

your body can more easily shift into ketosis. Your symptoms are likely very

low blood sugar (the brain wants it's sugar) and would not be encountered by

one who routinely experiences periods of no food.

FWIW you can enter Ketosis without fasting. That is the basis of the Atkins

diet (very low carbs). You may want to try restricting carbs only to see if

you can get into ketosis without the extreme symptoms (could take a few

days), and then reduce total calories.

JR

[Guest guest]

I fast sometimes for religious reasons. Usually there is no problem,

your results are atypical. If you were not concerned about CR I would

say it was caffeine withdrawal but I assume that you do not do that,

Well off the exercise!

Positive Dennis

paultheo2000 wrote:

>Hi Francesca,

>

>It seems fairly accepted that CRON leads to increases in longevity.

>But I'm curious in knowing: what factor of CRON is directly

>responsible for this? If we knew this, we could do this one thing

>directly.

>

>The best analogous situation I can come up with is weightlifting.

>Suppose you notice that getting sore leads to increases in

>strength/hypertrophy. Now, you might believe this correlation implies

>that soreness causes these two physiological adaptations. However; it

>is most likely the total work done (training volume) that results in

>positive body alterations. Not too mention that extreme soreness

>(perhaps like extreme CR) is not at all beneficial. The way I see it

>CRON is sort of like soreness. When it comes to soreness we know that

>(roughly) training volume is the key denominator... what is this key

>denominator with CRON?

>

>My thoughts:

>

>1.) Increased insulin sensitivity

>2.) Optimal vitamins, minerals, fiber, protein, EFAs, monounsaturated

>fats, etc. (ie; the ON part)

>3.) Adaptations which come with 'starvation'.

>

>Perhaps the body simply has protective mechanisms (which result in

>increased longevity) which appear under periods of starvation? Perhaps

>if I were to eat nothing at all every few days that the benefits of CR

>would reappear (no restriction is taking place--I'd eat more on

>non-fasting days). Wasn't there a study about this in rats?

>

>I guess my point is: it would be so much easier if we really knew the

>key aspect of CRON that leads to longevity. Currently it almost feels

>like walking in the dark. Certainly CRON works but perhaps there are

>easier or more effective ways to go about it if we got to the heart of

>the matter. In the same way that minimizing training soreness but

>maximizing training volume would lead to greater strength gains over

>time.

>

>I'm not sure if I expressed myself coherently, I hope you see what I'm

>saying.

>

>BTW, can your body 'adapt' to periods of starvation? I tried a 400

>calorie 1 day fast a few weeks ago and it was quite difficult. I had

>headaches, feelings of wanting to puke, weakness. Is this a result of

>the actual lack of calories or simply because my body is so

>unnacustomed to it? I can't envisage prehistoric man lying helplessly

>on the ground if deprived of food for a few days...

>

>Thoughts?

>

>-

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Yes, EOD (every other day) feeding. "

What are your thoughts on this?

" Yes, that's the big question and thrust of much research. Lot's of

theories but AFAIK no definitive answer. "

That's what I feared/suspected. Do you think they'll come up with an

answer eventually?

" Your symptoms are likely very low blood sugar (the brain wants it's

sugar) and would not be encountered by one who routinely experiences

periods of no food. "

Ok, that explains it. How would you recommend adjusting too occasional

fasting. I'd like to be able to go 2-3 days a week with minimal food

without feeling like I'm on the verge of death.

" You may want to try restricting carbs only to see if you can get into

ketosis without the extreme symptoms "

Wouldn't little to no carbs mean eliminating most vegetables?

-

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I'll get the book when I come back from vacation using interlibrary

loan (assuming that works). In the meantime I'm still quite curious

-

--- In , Anton <bwp@u...>

wrote:

> hey paul,

> re: posts about books and stuff and the " how does CR work? " stuff,

> you really should read Walford's BT120YD. it's worth every penny and

> deserves to be on your shelf. just don't take every last piece of

> nutritional advice as the final word.

>

> mike parker

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: paultheo2000 [mailto:paultheo2000@...]

Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 12:08 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: CR and body fat

Ok, that explains it. How would you recommend adjusting too occasional

fasting. I'd like to be able to go 2-3 days a week with minimal food

without feeling like I'm on the verge of death.

" You may want to try restricting carbs only to see if you can get into

ketosis without the extreme symptoms "

Wouldn't little to no carbs mean eliminating most vegetables?

-

==============

Yes, but fasting also involves eliminating all vegetables, not a problem for

short durations.

Green vegetables are pretty low calorie. Since your body needs more glucose

than it can get from some vegetables you can still force your body into

ketosis. FWIW I measured trace ketone bodies in my urine Friday after my 5

mile run and I'm not fasting or specifically restricting carbs (160G/day).

Counting alcohol calories I'm well over 2,000 per day but I'm pretty active

and I measured when I did because that is probably the most depleted time of

the week for my glycogen stores.

I find the carbohydrate/insulin axis to be a very important mechanism for

several potential disease vectors.

JR

PS: I don't disagree that rare/raw meat ( " tartare " ) can taste very good, I'm

not sure I have much faith in our food suppliers to keep it pristine. I

have shifted toward low temperature cooking and experimented with

pre-freezing vegetables (to break down the cell walls) to reduce cooking

needed.

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[Guest guest]

> Gandhi,

> " You can do vigourous exercise to

> avoid loosing muscles "

> You mean like weightlifting?

Yes. Weightlifiting. I'm 28 and lift weights since

my 20. I'm 123 pounds and 5% body fat. My insulin

sensivity is very high.

> " The lower the BF, the higher the insulin sensitivity.

> Hmm, I suspected this as well. I'm curious: is this a w

ell accepted

> medical fact?

Well, I'm not a phisician I'm a researcher in

molecular biology using computers, so please,

consult your phisician.

I can say " yes " , to your question, BUT keep in mind:

The opposite is not aways true.

You can have a higer body fat and but a

insulin sensitivity high too.

This is dependent on the genetic. It's dificult to

justify here quickly, but there are two strains of

humans: The thirfties: Eat little --> gain a lot of

fat. And the burners: Eat a lot --> Continue thin.

Are you a thirfty or are you a burner? Burners age

faster and have short lifespans. I'm a burner

If you are a burner, my advice is *go slow*

with CR!! otherwise you will loose longevity

insted of gain it. Your BMR perhaps is something like

1500 kcal so, eat 2000 and liftweight.

Dean Pormeleau and others are doing this with good

results.

-- Gandhi.

>

> -

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[Guest guest]

If you wouldn't mind, could you please explain how you know your insulin

sensitivty is very high? My blood glucose is reported to be in normal

range, but I know that if my sugar intake (incl fruit) is not managed

with small doses with offset of protein, I perceive hunger much sooner,

& will lean to a cycle of eating more of it. I perceive that I react to

acidic foods similarly (tomatoes, pineapple).

ronaldo.luiz.alonso wrote:

Yes. Weightlifiting. I'm 28 and lift weights since my 20. I'm 123

pounds and 5% body fat. My insulin sensivity is very high.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

" Yes. Weightlifiting. I'm 28 and lift weights since my 20. I'm 123

pounds and 5% body fat. My insulin sensivity is very high. "

Has your insulin sensitivity always been high or did you make it this

way? If so, exactly what techniques did you use? Could you elaborate

on the benefits of insulin sensitivity, I don't know precisely how it

works. I think if I lost 7% body fat I'd be about the same weight as

you. How tall are you?

" You can have a higer body fat and but a insulin sensitivity high too. "

Then how do you get fat if you're insulin sensitive?

" This is dependent on the genetic. It's dificult to justify here

quickly, but there are two strains of humans: The thirfties: Eat

little --> gain a lot of fat. And the burners: Eat a lot --> Continue

thin. Are you a thirfty or are you a burner? Burners age faster and

have short lifespans. I'm a burner "

That's very interesting. I've heard the terms mentioned before but

never in proper context. You say burners age faster? That seems very

counter intuitive? Since they basically stay thin eating whatever they

want, don't they have a decided advantage? I can't believe people who

eat little and get fat are an healthier...they usually end up

chronically obese in modern society. I'd say I'm neither. If left ad

lib I'd probably become quite chubby but not obese. It doesn't appear

that I have any genetic propensity towards become skinny easily (so

I'm not a burner). I have friends who are burners (ie; they can

shamelessly gulp down entire pizzas and stay at 7-8% bodyfat) and they

make me insanely jealous. So you're telling me these people actually

live LESS long? Does this mean I'm in the ideal position? Ie; I lean

more towards being a thrifty but through CRON I could maintain a low

bf%...

About lifting weights and exercise, I certain plan to incorporate it

into whatever CR version I plan to practice. Like you said, that means

I can eat 500 extra calories a day without any seemingly negative

repercussions.

As an aside, wouldn't it be odd if it turned out the mechanism for

longevity was directly correlated too hunger? That would mean that

everyone practicing CR using various satiety techniques wouldn't be

doing themselves any good. I'm just throwing a wild conjecture out

there, but it seems plausible. That's why new research is so vital...

Thanks,

-

>

[Guest guest]

This is also a characteristic of youth. Up til the age of as late as mid

50's I could as much as I wanted of anything I wanted and not gain a pound.

Then my metabolism changed, as it does for so many at middle age.

on 6/16/2003 8:13 AM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote:

> I have friends who are burners (ie; they can

> shamelessly gulp down entire pizzas and stay at 7-8% bodyfat) and they

> make me insanely jealous. So you're telling me these people actually

> live LESS long?

[Guest guest]

I guess that must have been quite a shock when the change happened. In

any case, I wish I had that problem till age 50!

Maybe you can help here, because this question has really been bugging

me: with people who burn off empty calories like that, are they still

negatively impacted? Ie: say my friends eats a large unhealthy pizza.

Obviously it doesn't get stored as fat; it seems to simply get burned

off. But does he suffer the negative health consequences from the

unhealthy food (let's assume he also consumes plenty of nutritious

foods so he's not lacking nutrition)??

Thanks,

-

[Guest guest]

Just judging from this one mouse's experience, I am much healthier and get

sick less now that I'm on CRON. Of course some things like BP and weight

were still low even before CRON. Skinny people who don't eat right are not

always healthy. I used to get my fair share of colds and flu.

on 6/16/2003 8:27 AM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote:

> I guess that must have been quite a shock when the change happened. In

> any case, I wish I had that problem till age 50!

>

> Maybe you can help here, because this question has really been bugging

> me: with people who burn off empty calories like that, are they still

> negatively impacted? Ie: say my friends eats a large unhealthy pizza.

> Obviously it doesn't get stored as fat; it seems to simply get burned

> off. But does he suffer the negative health consequences from the

> unhealthy food (let's assume he also consumes plenty of nutritious

> foods so he's not lacking nutrition)??

>

> Thanks,

>

> -

[Guest guest]

> If you wouldn't mind, could you please explain how you

know your insulin

> sensitivty is very high? My blood glucose is reported

to be in normal

My fasting glucose is 70 mg/dl. This means that

insulin sensitivity is high.

After administering glucose OGTT (Oral Glucose

tolerance Test ) 30 minuts, my glucose raises to 100

mg/dl and falls to 66 mg/dl after 3 hours. This means

high insulin sensitivity.

> range, but I know that if my sugar intake (incl fruit)

is not managed

> with small doses with offset of protein, I perceive hun

ger much sooner,

Hunger can be a simpton of low blood sugar. But

you need a glicometer to be sure

> & will lean to a cycle of eating more of it. I perceiv

e that I react to

> acidic foods similarly (tomatoes, pineapple).

>

Tomatoes are low GI, but in general carbohidrates

increase appetite leading to hunger.

>

> ronaldo.luiz.alonso wrote:

> Yes. Weightlifiting. I'm 28 and lift weights since my

20. I'm 123

> pounds and 5% body fat. My insulin sensivity is very hi

gh.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: ronaldo.luiz.alonso

Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:16 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] CR and body fat

> If you wouldn't mind, could you please explain how you know your insulin > sensitivty is very high? My blood glucose is reported to be in normal My fasting glucose is 70 mg/dl. This means thatinsulin sensitivity is high. After administering glucose OGTT (Oral Glucose tolerance Test ) 30 minuts, my glucose raises to 100 mg/dl and falls to 66 mg/dl after 3 hours. This meanshigh insulin sensitivity.> range, but I know that if my sugar intake (incl fruit) is not managed > with small doses with offset of protein, I perceive hunger much sooner, Hunger can be a simpton of low blood sugar. Butyou need a glicometer to be sure > & will lean to a cycle of eating more of it. I perceive that I react to > acidic foods similarly (tomatoes, pineapple).> Tomatoes are low GI, but in general carbohidratesincrease appetite leading to hunger.> > ronaldo.luiz.alonso wrote:> Yes. Weightlifiting. I'm 28 and lift weights since my 20. I'm 123 > pounds and 5% body fat. My insulin sensivity is very high.> > > >