Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 I've no doubt that Francesca has it right. Would you mind giving me an example of a ~non physical~ ailment of any kind, though? Or for that matter anything at all which contains no physical properties?? " The first is a treatable disorder, while the second is an evil act of choice. " Choice? The chemicals in this person's brain have effectively FORCED this person to be a pedophile. There was no alternative from your deterministic point of view. I'm not argueing that you're wrong, just trying to raise a point. If we use the analogy of diabetes and apply it to mental illness we effectively arrive at a catch-22. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 > I've no doubt that Francesca has it right. Would you mind giving me an > example of a ~non physical~ ailment of any kind, though? Or for that > matter anything at all which contains no physical properties?? Until relatively recently, mental disorders were all thought to be non-physical disorders of the " mind, " which itself was considered a " non-physical " manifestation of the brain, at least by many psychiatrists. This has changed with an improved understanding of neurochemistry. Incidentally, I believe the talking cure, i.e, psychotherapy, has been shown to alter brain chemistry in some clinical studies. > Choice? The chemicals in this person's brain have effectively FORCED > this person to be a pedophile. There was no alternative from your > deterministic point of view A depressed person cannot choose to be happy, whereas a pedophile can choose not to abuse a child. BTW, there is an article in the New England J. of Med. (just arrived) titled " Leisure Activities and the Risk of Dementia in the Elderly. It concludes: " Participation in leisure activities is associated with a reduced risk of dem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 : Pedophiles are aware that they are committing a crime. They also realize that they are victimizing an innocent child. They are evil because their own perverted sexual desires take precedence . People do indeed have control over sexual urges, otherwise we'd have rape of all sorts going on all over the place, (instead of just where the perpetrator can get away with it). It takes a lot of narcissistic plotting, planning and cleverness on the part of the pedophile who he is breaking laws and he dare not get caught or he will be punished. on 6/18/2003 3:31 PM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote: > Choice? The chemicals in this person's brain have effectively FORCED > this person to be a pedophile. There was no alternative from your > deterministic point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 francesca, if what you say below is in fact the case, then why do chronic pedophiles, who know they will be caught, and punished again, terribly so in some cases, continue to commit their crime? my point is that your synopsis allows no room for the element of the unconscious, the dark storeroom of repressed desires that compels even the most strong willed of pederasts to engage in recividism, a trait which many cronies may be albe to understand with respect to bingeing sprees. smiles. ----- Original Message ----- From: " Francesca Skelton " <fskelton@...> < > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: more of depression > : Pedophiles are aware that they are committing a crime. They also > realize that they are victimizing an innocent child. They are evil because > their own perverted sexual desires take precedence . People do indeed have > control over sexual urges, otherwise we'd have rape of all sorts going on > all over the place, (instead of just where the perpetrator can get away with > it). It takes a lot of narcissistic plotting, planning and cleverness on > the part of the pedophile who he is breaking laws and he dare not get caught > or he will be punished. > > on 6/18/2003 3:31 PM, paultheo2000 at paultheo2000@... wrote: > > > Choice? The chemicals in this person's brain have effectively FORCED > > this person to be a pedophile. There was no alternative from your > > deterministic point of view. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 there is a personality type who lives only for the moment. You see it all around you all the time. Whether it be getting in over your head in debt, or any kind of overdoing (overeating and overdrinking could qualify). Unfortunately, it sometimes happens that this personality type is a criminal (of any kind) and either doesn't think about tomorrow or doesn't think he/she will get caught next time. on 6/18/2003 6:03 PM, robert andrew at mommyb@... wrote: > francesca, if what you say below is in fact the case, then why do chronic > pedophiles, who know they will be caught, and punished again, terribly so in > some cases, continue to commit their crime? my point is that your synopsis > allows no room for the element of the unconscious, the dark storeroom of > repressed desires that compels even the most strong willed of pederasts to > engage in recividism, a trait which many cronies may be albe to understand > with respect to bingeing sprees. smiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 ----- Original Message ----- From: " Francesca Skelton " <fskelton@...> < > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: more of depression > there is a personality type who lives only for the moment. You see it all > around you all the time. Whether it be getting in over your head in debt, > or any kind of overdoing (overeating and overdrinking could qualify). > Unfortunately, it sometimes happens that this personality type is a criminal > (of any kind) and either doesn't think about tomorrow or doesn't think > he/she will get caught next time. >MY POINT EXACTLY. UNCONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR, OR AT LEAST HIGHLY SKEWED SEMI CONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR, WHICH BELIES YOUR ASSERTION THAT SUCH ACTS ARE COMMITTED WITH ALMOST A PREMEDITATION GLEEFUL WILLINGNESS. MY POINT, WHILE STILL TRYING TO STAY ON TOPIC WITH RESPECT TO CRON AND OVER EATING, IS THAT THIS FORUM HAS GROSSLY FAILED TO ADDRESS THE PLETHORA OF PSYCHOLOGICAL FACTORS, ESPECIALLY IN THE REALM OF THE UNCONSCIOUS, WHICH SABOTAGE EVEN THE BEST EFFORTS OF THE MOST ARGENT CRONIES. AGAIN, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT, IF YOU WILL FORGIVE THE PUN. NICE TALKING TO YOU, I WILL NOW RETIRE BACK TO SIDELINES. > > > on 6/18/2003 6:03 PM, robert andrew at mommyb@... wrote: > > > francesca, if what you say below is in fact the case, then why do chronic > > pedophiles, who know they will be caught, and punished again, terribly so in > > some cases, continue to commit their crime? my point is that your synopsis > > allows no room for the element of the unconscious, the dark storeroom of > > repressed desires that compels even the most strong willed of pederasts to > > engage in recividism, a trait which many cronies may be albe to understand > > with respect to bingeing sprees. smiles. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 I don't think it's skewed semi-concious behavior. Or gleeful willingness. But narcissistic and criminal, yes. I don't believe homosexuality is a choice. Nevertheless, the vast majority of homosexuals obey the law (as do most heterosexuals) and don't go around molesting children or non-consenting adults of the same sex. on 6/18/2003 6:29 PM, robert andrew at mommyb@... wrote: >> MY POINT EXACTLY. UNCONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR, OR AT LEAST HIGHLY SKEWED SEMI > CONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR, WHICH BELIES YOUR ASSERTION THAT SUCH ACTS ARE COMMITTED > WITH ALMOST A PREMEDITATION GLEEFUL WILLINGNESS. MY POINT, WHILE STILL > TRYING TO STAY ON TOPIC WITH RESPECT TO CRON AND OVER EATING, IS THAT THIS > FORUM HAS GROSSLY FAILED TO ADDRESS THE PLETHORA OF PSYCHOLOGICAL FACTORS, > ESPECIALLY IN THE REALM OF THE UNCONSCIOUS, WHICH SABOTAGE EVEN THE BEST > EFFORTS OF THE MOST ARGENT CRONIES. AGAIN, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT, IF YOU > WILL FORGIVE THE PUN. NICE TALKING TO YOU, I WILL NOW RETIRE BACK TO > SIDELINES. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 ----- Original Message ----- From: " Francesca Skelton " <fskelton@...> < > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: more of depression > I don't think it's skewed semi-concious behavior. Or gleeful willingness. > But narcissistic and criminal, yes. > > I don't believe homosexuality is a choice. Nevertheless, the vast majority > of homosexuals obey the law (as do most heterosexuals) and don't go around > molesting children or non-consenting adults of the same sex. > APPARENTLY YOU ARE NOT A CATHOLIC. LETS DROP THIS. BEST TO YOU > > on 6/18/2003 6:29 PM, robert andrew at mommyb@... wrote: > > >> MY POINT EXACTLY. UNCONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR, OR AT LEAST HIGHLY SKEWED SEMI > > CONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR, WHICH BELIES YOUR ASSERTION THAT SUCH ACTS ARE COMMITTED > > WITH ALMOST A PREMEDITATION GLEEFUL WILLINGNESS. MY POINT, WHILE STILL > > TRYING TO STAY ON TOPIC WITH RESPECT TO CRON AND OVER EATING, IS THAT THIS > > FORUM HAS GROSSLY FAILED TO ADDRESS THE PLETHORA OF PSYCHOLOGICAL FACTORS, > > ESPECIALLY IN THE REALM OF THE UNCONSCIOUS, WHICH SABOTAGE EVEN THE BEST > > EFFORTS OF THE MOST ARGENT CRONIES. AGAIN, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT, IF YOU > > WILL FORGIVE THE PUN. NICE TALKING TO YOU, I WILL NOW RETIRE BACK TO > > SIDELINES. > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 I guess my point is not coming across correctly. Everything, by very definition, is physical. There is no seperate entity of the 'mind' which is non-physical. Therefore; stating that depression is a physical ailment is an absolutely meaningless statement. It should be noted that pedophiles often consider that they are HELPING the child and doing something which is right, in their eyes. Technically, we're all a by product of neural activity in the brain. At some fundamental level none of us choose something independently. However those brain cells are aligned, at any moment, dictates what we do. The same is true of depression. I had (have) a good online friend who has clinical depression and has had it his entire life. He is fully aware of it and he takes steps towards rationalizing it and making the best of it. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 > Everything, by very definition, is physical. There is no seperate > entity of the 'mind' which is non-physical. Therefore; stating that > depression is a physical ailment is an absolutely meaningless statement. Spoken like a true believing logical positivist--Prof. Ayers would be proud of your were he still alive. The fact is, many great minds, of the west and the east, with many more than 17 years of experience, disagree with you, so lets not make such dismissive statements that belie the existence of theology, metaphysics, and much of quantum physics, whose essential, basic reality, is as yet essentially unknowable. > It should be noted that pedophiles often consider that they are > HELPING the child and doing something which is right, in their eyes. What more proof do you need that they are evil? > Technically, we're all a by product of neural activity in the brain. Not true. We are a product of nature and nurture which along with chance (an important component) determine neural activiity. Of course, this comment supports the points I made earlier wherein restoring adequate levels of serotonin in the brain avoids the neural activity associated with depression, thus inducing healthier thought patterns. > I had (have) a good online friend who has clinical depression and has > had it his entire life. He is fully aware of it and he takes steps > towards rationalizing it and making the best of it. Generalizing from the limited experience of one person, i.e., your online friend, is a perfect example of " testimonial evidence " (BT120YD--p.22), which Walford describes as being highly unreliable--I agree. If you're truly interested in depression, read about it in books by reputable experts. These are certainly in the library or available through interlibrary loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 " lets not make such dismissive statements that belie the existence of theology, metaphysics, and much of quantum physics, whose essential, basic reality, is as yet essentially unknowable. " Your implicit denial of what I was saying is taking a stand on this (agreably complex) issue as well, whether you realize this or not. In fact, I did not bring up this issue in the first place. " What more proof do you need that they are evil? " My goal is not in showing that pedophilia is not evil, simply that it too is a result of various processes of the brain. " Not true. We are a product of nature and nurture which along with chance (an important component) determine neural activiity. " I was not detailing why and how neural activity came about, simply that it was present at all moments of concious existence. I don't know what point you're trying to make. What kind of 'chance' do you believe influences neural activity? " Of course, this comment supports the points I made earlier wherein restoring adequate levels of serotonin in the brain avoids the neural activity associated with depression, thus inducing healthier thought patterns. " Same is true, more or less, for pedophilia. (If you substitute serotonin for an other chemical explanation) " Generalizing from the limited experience of one person, i.e., your online friend, is a perfect example of " testimonial evidence " (BT120YD--p.22), which Walford describes as being highly unreliable--I agree. If you're truly interested in depression, read about it in books by reputable experts. These are certainly in the library or available through interlibrary loan. " No need for condescension; I am perfectly aware of what anecdotal evidence is. I was illustrating it for the sake of simplicity in the same way that people share recipes. I wasn't looking to score points in debate. Depression is not a topic I'm particularly fascinated in; I was only try to contribute what I thought was a helpful point. Namely: we should all keep a positive attitude about life and realize what a blessing it is. Now, if I'm to get lambasted as ignorant for that statement: so be it. If others prefer to pity fellow human beings and put them on mind-numbing drugs then good for them. I see no need in pursueing this further. I've had far too many frivolous internet debates to know this is going nowhere. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Interesting you use that phrase. The medical world abounds with them. And "black holes" devoid of logic. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: paultheo2000 Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 2:31 PM Subject: [ ] Re: more of depression I've no doubt that Francesca has it right. Would you mind giving me anexample of a ~non physical~ ailment of any kind, though? Or for thatmatter anything at all which contains no physical properties??"The first is a treatable disorder, while the second is an evil actof choice."Choice? The chemicals in this person's brain have effectively FORCEDthis person to be a pedophile. There was no alternative from yourdeterministic point of view. I'm not argueing that you're wrong, just trying to raise a point. If we use the analogy of diabetes and apply it to mental illness weeffectively arrive at a catch-22. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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