RE: How Low Can You Go?

[Guest guest]

In order to reach starvation, you need to either have an iron will, or

to be mentally ill (I can see the post coming...). If you are mentally

ill, then I cannot offer advice. If you have an iron will, then use this

will to frequently (at least twice a year) and religiously monitor your

health. My guess is that the " usual " tests prescribed by a HCP are the

bare minimum, if that, and an iron-will CRONie better spend some more to

get some more advanced tests.

Micky

I wanna have an iron will...

-----Original Message-----

From: nutrinaut [mailto:neologisticscald@...]

Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 2:17 PM

Subject: [ ] How low can you go?

How can you know calorie starvation sets in? I heard some mice were

restricted down to 40%. That seems very unlikely to me. What is a

safe percentage?

Jef

[Guest guest]

They were 40% calorie restricted. Not to be confused with weight. On page

230 of B120YD is a discussion on what calorie level to settle on.

Basically Walford says never to go below 1100 cal a day. He suggests you

may need to eat more than the basal level (1100-1500) or you might lose

weight too fast. He suggests decreasing your calories to the amount that

allows you to lose weight gradually (which is different for everybody)

on 4/14/2003 5:17 PM, nutrinaut at neologisticscald@... wrote:

> How can you know calorie starvation sets in? I heard some mice were

> restricted down to 40%. That seems very unlikely to me. What is a

> safe percentage?

> Jef

[Guest guest]

I lost my BT120YOD book, but a blanket suggestion (AKA rule of thumb) to

not eat less than 1100 calories per day is plain silly. The '1100'

obviously depends on your 'size' and sex, so a 6'3 " male is likely to

starve on 1100 a day, and a 5'1 " female might even gain some weight on

1100.

There's another blanket recommendation W makes (from my memory) which is

not to go below 5% bodyfat for males, and not to go below 10-15%

bodyfat% for females.

Being somewhat of an engineer, I like as much precise definition as

possible, and " don't go below 10-15 bodyfat% " is a silly definition on

its face; it's either " don't go below 10 " or " don't go below 15 " .

So not going below X% bodyfat is a relatively sensible definition.

However, bear in mind that W might had other things on his mind when he

wrote the book: the last thing he (probably) wanted, is people starving

themselves to death/illness, and getting himself bashed for this. So IMO

he simply made the blanket suggestion as a safeguard against the

mentally ill (here we go again...) and not as much as an optimal safe

limit.

BUT, I do think that limiting oneself to 5% bodyfat (males) and 10%

(females) is sensible.

Going below that would likely require a more careful medical

supervision.

Micky. 4.1%

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 2:51 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] How low can you go?

They were 40% calorie restricted. Not to be confused with weight. On

page

230 of B120YD is a discussion on what calorie level to settle on.

Basically Walford says never to go below 1100 cal a day. He suggests

you

may need to eat more than the basal level (1100-1500) or you might lose

weight too fast. He suggests decreasing your calories to the amount

that

allows you to lose weight gradually (which is different for everybody)

on 4/14/2003 5:17 PM, nutrinaut at neologisticscald@... wrote:

> How can you know calorie starvation sets in? I heard some mice were

> restricted down to 40%. That seems very unlikely to me. What is a

> safe percentage?

> Jef

[Guest guest]

CR ALL:

How low can you go? [in body weight]. Who knows?

No one knows for sure how low to do it safely.

Each person is DIFFERENT. Some have

pre-existing health conditions -- and

these may be UNKNOWN or even hidden genetic.

Maybe some should GAIN weight, rather than

lose it? Consult your physician.

Don't trust hir? Find another. Or several.

CR is not for those who want to strike out

independently on their own lonesome.

CR should have periodic medical testing

in order to be safe. Even then, the

eccentric and the strong-willed are at possible risk.

Also, many of the things popularly taught

about health are erroneous, or worse yet,

misleading and confusing. One should do

some study and learning, esp to overcome

erroneous misconceptions and preconceived ideas.

CR includes much " Unlearning " and ignoring

the misleading " popular wisdom " .

Even the " Main CR List " (known for its

great minds and scientific talent) has a lot

of total phooey on it. Don't be misled by

fancy arguments that may impress you.

Some of it may be good -- but can you tell

the difference?

If you want to know about serious CR, and

about CR for humans specifically, then go

to a genuine resource of proven experts in human CR,

such as will speak at an upcoming Conference below.

Then you will hear about genuine human CR from a

clinical perspective in real people, documented and

charted, where you can ask questions freely.

Such a conference at a bargain price is listed at:

http://www.calorierestriction.org/CR_Conference_2003.htm

Look at the collection of famous speakers.

Note that medical researchers and doctors appear who

are world-class experts in human CR research and

clinical testing. Also experts in research with primates,

our cousins and closest living relatives on the genome tree.

Also: There is a clever way to get good airfare discounts --

Call me by phone for how to get approx 1/2 price airfare.

Flights connect directly into the Conference airport (MSN).

Email me for my phone #.

-- Warren

[Guest guest]

Funny what the press can make you think. You’ll

die 10,000 times or more b4 you die from SARS. I remember some study that

showed that persons with lower weight have better chances to survive a car

accident. CRON roolz!

J

BTW Suz, you did come up with an interesting

issue. The rodents in the labs are not exposed to “germs” as much

as humans do. I wish there was some good statistics of us CRONies and getting

ill. The overall impression I get is that we get a *lot* less ill. Even the “other CRONie” that is

coming off a mild pneumonia claims that it was the 1st illness in 3

years of CRON. Who knows. I did wash my hands like crazy (not OCD though) when

my wife and 4 kids were down with a flu. I finally caught a bit of it (had to

take care of the snotty 1 year old that was still suckling, and the others) but

it was indeed the 1st real illness in about 2 years of CRON, and I got

over it almost completely in 3 days. It used to take me weeks to shake things

off, and it used to be a few times every year, including summer.

M.

-----Original Message-----

From: Suzanne Cart

[mailto:massuz@...]

Sent: Monday, April

14, 2003 10:24 PM

CR Support Group

Subject: [ ] How Low

Can You Go?

There's an old

expression, " If you have to ask how much something costs, you can't afford

it. " How low can you go? I don't know, but

personally, I can't afford to find out. I'm not willing to be the

guinea pig for that experiment--any more than I'd expose myself to SARs or get

in the car with a drunk driver. CRON probably can extend your lifetime,

but you need to be careful that the cure isn't what kills you. As obvious

as this seems, make certain you really do get the point before you jump in.

Speaking of SARs...the

SARs virus has me entirely rethinking the wisdom of calorie

restriction. It would be interesting to see how CRONed immune

systems react to such an infection. Do you suppose CRONies would fare

better or worse than the general population when exposed to SARs?

Maybe we should all start

wearing surgical masks wherever we go. And don't forget the duct

tape.

Suz

PS Jackie Onassis

said, " You can never be too thin or too rich. " I guess it was

the money that killed her so young.

[Guest guest]

To be fair, this is not. This same person had a bad case of anemia while on

CRON (and then of course considerable bone loss although he is a young man).

Both pneumonia and anemia are pretty serious.

on 4/15/2003 4:05 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> Funny what the press can make you think. You'll die 10,000 times or more

> Even the " other

> CRONie " that is coming off a mild pneumonia claims that it was the 1st

> illness in 3 years of CRON.

[Guest guest]

RLW also suggests starting at around 2000 kc for a man of average size,

less for a woman. Note if your weight goes up or down, and how fast it's

going up or down. The next step seems obvious, but....if you are losing

weight rapidly, eat more, carefully adding calories in modest increments.

If you are slowly losing weight, hang in there, you're doing it about

right. If you are gaining weight, cut your calories in step-wise fashion

until you are slowly losing weight. If you are staying even, cut your

calories by a modest amount, and see what happens. This will, be

inference, give you an estimate of your present set point....at least for

working purposes. If, for instance, you are eating 2000 kc daily, and

you are losing a pound a week, after the initial two or three week period

when you may be losing some fluid as well as fat, anyway, if you're losing

a pound a week, that represents roughly 500 calories a day, and you

estimated set point would be about 2500 calories. Is this absolutely

accurate? No. Will it work? Yes.

Your age should partially determine how much you restrict...perhaps as much

as 30% (with incremental reductions in calories as you lose weight and

weight loss slows)...or as little as 5 or 10%. I began cr at age 64 and

initially lost 50 pounds.

With all the chatter about Omega 3 fatty acids, more fat, etc about 3

years ago, I changed my diet. I went from a straight Ornish with optimal

nutrition (not automatic with Ornish. You have to Walford it) to some

fish, some chicken, some sugar (Ornish allows sugar by my original system

did not). I regained 25 pounds before I caught myself. I since have lost

8 or 10 pounds. From a health stand point, I need to lose more weight. It

is very difficult. How much have I cut my calories? About 35%. If I

increase calories, I gain weight. If I decrease, I slowly lose weight,

but I am very uncomfortable. So, I have cut my calories enough, but I am

carrying too much fat, still. 27%. When I first started this it was 43%.

One of Walford's parameters is the suggestion that losing about half your

bodyfat percentage may be about right. In my case, I'd need to get my bf%

down to about 20-21%. About 15 pounds more or less. I believe I can do

that, if I can, for the first time in my life, just be consistent and

keep on keeping on. It hurts, but I believe I can do it. Clearly, that

will be enough.

You can do it, too. Just start. Weigh yourself. Start your program and

weigh yourself daily, or weigh yourself weekly to be sure that you are

losing weight, not staying even or gaining. Give it a month to see how

you're doing, and don't pay too much attention to weight loss the first

three weeks. It's going to take six weeks before you know how much you're

losing per week. Make your adjustments from there. Pay attention to

optimal nutrition, but don't be a nut about it. Dwidp is a great help.

If you buy it, get it direct from Walford's website. He'll get a little

more that way, and the Walford's deserve every penny they get.

Ed s.

----- Original Message -----

From: " Francesca Skelton " <fskelton@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 2:50 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] How low can you go?

> They were 40% calorie restricted. Not to be confused with weight. On page

> 230 of B120YD is a discussion on what calorie level to settle on.

> Basically Walford says never to go below 1100 cal a day. He suggests you

> may need to eat more than the basal level (1100-1500) or you might lose

> weight too fast. He suggests decreasing your calories to the amount that

> allows you to lose weight gradually (which is different for everybody)

>

> on 4/14/2003 5:17 PM, nutrinaut at neologisticscald@... wrote:

>

> > How can you know calorie starvation sets in? I heard some mice were

> > restricted down to 40%. That seems very unlikely to me. What is a

> > safe percentage?

> > Jef

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ok.

So to repeat what I said in an earlier post: if you go " extreme " , make

sure to test your health as often as possible. Dean (AKA " the other

cronie " ) is indeed extreme, BUT he was monitoring his health very

closely thus caught his anemia pretty quickly, and took quick measures

to reverse it, *INCLUDING* IIRC increase in calorie intake.

Bone loss: anyone on CRON that loses weight will lose bone mass; like

you lose muscle mass, internal organ mass, connective tissue mass, or to

put it simply: lean body mass. Everyone. Dean is exceptional in the fact

that he religiously monitors his health (and for a good reason!) and he

again found the bone loss issue fast, and took quick measures to fix it.

I wonder how many on this list will have low score on DXA scans, should

they monitor themselves, as they should (1)

Evidence: I *LOVE* the section in W's book about the value of scientific

evidence. So Dean would be anecdotal evidence. I think it's the lowliest

form of scientific evidence, and I'm not sure that there's evidence at

all in this case. People get anemic. People get pneumonic :-) people

that lose weight lose *all* tissue, thus bone as well. Indeed, not many

people get all three of them in 3 years, but it's still anecdotal.

M.

(1) at BMI of slight above 24, I am in no danger of losing bone (add to

that lifting very heavy weights, and taking the right supplements)

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:11 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] How Low Can You Go?

To be fair, this is not. This same person had a bad case of anemia

while on

CRON (and then of course considerable bone loss although he is a young

man).

Both pneumonia and anemia are pretty serious.

on 4/15/2003 4:05 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> Funny what the press can make you think. You'll die 10,000 times or

more

> Even the " other

> CRONie " that is coming off a mild pneumonia claims that it was the 1st

> illness in 3 years of CRON.

[Guest guest]

Anemia is serious. And people do not usually get pneumonia (I have never

had it for example.) Neither condition is in the same category as a cold.

Pneumonia ordinarily strikes when your immune system has been weakened. We

now have two extreme CRONIES who've had cases of pneumonia. I agree that

one can't draw conclusions based on two CRONIES, but I think I'll keep to my

more moderate regimen anyway.

on 4/15/2003 4:26 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> People get anemic. People get pneumonic :-)

[Guest guest]

mwuh, my wife, my neighbor or, and some friends had it recently, its not common nor is it uncommon.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----Van: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]Verzonden: dinsdag 15 april 2003 22:51Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [ ] How Low Can You Go?Anemia is serious. And people do not usually get pneumonia (I have neverhad it for example.) Neither condition is in the same category as a cold.Pneumonia ordinarily strikes when your immune system has been weakened. Wenow have two extreme CRONIES who've had cases of pneumonia. I agree thatone can't draw conclusions based on two CRONIES, but I think I'll keep to mymore moderate regimen anyway.on 4/15/2003 4:26 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:> People get anemic. People get pneumonic :-)

[Guest guest]

Sure.

I respect your choice for moderation.

I respect Dean's choice for being more extreme; especially since he

(does not avocate it, and) is being very cautious about it and

*ESPECIALLY* because he is a great source of information of what might

happen as you go extremer, so if you do choose (chose? Damn, lose,

loose... how do I know how to spell it?) to go extreme, you have better

data of what to watch for. Star Trek (1)

BTW:

1. His pneumonia was very mild (he was still working out and all, but

was bothered by a cough, and thanks to his anal health monitoring

practices he found it was actually Pn.)

2. Errata: Dean did not increase his caloric intake when he was

diagnosed with anemia. What he did do, was take his green tea supps

between meals instead of with meals (and add iron supps). So there you

go: the extreme has taught us an important lesson: don't take you green

tea supps (or for that matter drink tea) with your meals, but rather

between meals. That is, unless you want to lower your iron levels.

M.

(1) " to go where no one has gone before " or something :-)

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:51 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] How Low Can You Go?

Anemia is serious. And people do not usually get pneumonia (I have

never

had it for example.) Neither condition is in the same category as a

cold.

Pneumonia ordinarily strikes when your immune system has been weakened.

We

now have two extreme CRONIES who've had cases of pneumonia. I agree

that

one can't draw conclusions based on two CRONIES, but I think I'll keep

to my

more moderate regimen anyway.

on 4/15/2003 4:26 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> People get anemic. People get pneumonic :-)