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You are no doubt correct "in general". Anyone eating modest amounts of processed food will get more than enough sodium. However I am aware of at least two individuals with presumably very healthful diets who were not getting adequate sodium and suffered symptoms (lethargy, malaise) which reversed as soon as they corrected the deficiency.

It is human nature to look at issues through our personal filters so let me explain my personal experience and source of my bias. As a young adult eating ad-lib I saw my blood pressure creep up from 120/80 to 135/90 and suspect I was well on the road to your proposed " I'm sure that all people get hypertensive sooner or later ". I hope you are at least a little right because regular exercise brought my BP back down to below 120/80. Later losing a few tens of pounds and improving my dietary choices has dropped my BP to borderline low <100/60. I'm 54 now and wouldn't mind my BP rising some :-). Except for occasional dizziness upon standing too quickly I think I can live with the low BP, however I do add salt to some recipes and try to get daily minimum recommendations.

I repeat we are all individuals and general advice is not for everyone... invest a little effort to learn what you should be doing for your personal situation.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated advice

I'm suggesting that ingesting any salt is not necessary and it's not just for hypertensives. I've found no evidence that we need to add salt unless you're a marine planning to march 8 hrs with a pack wearing full clothing and boots. Then you might use more salt to retain more water at the start. But routine use is for flavor only. foods contain plenty of sodium. You don't need salt to sweat and as you get lower in sodium level you sweat a good deal less sodium out. It can reach less than 100 mg per oz.

The idea that some hypertensives are "salt-sensitive" is coming under fire also. One noted HTN expert thinks ALL hypertensives are salt sensitive and I can find no evidence to disagree with that. And I'm sure that all people get hypertensive sooner or later. It's an aging thing - I'm guessing a mitochondrial transport function. Of course, limiting sodium for hypertensives does not cure the HTN - it restricts the ability of the kidney to retain sodium.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:07 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated advice

I apologize to any I irritated with my contrarian opinions/advice. The one thing I know for sure is that I can't give any other individual arbitrary advice. You need to adjust your behavior based on your personal circumstances.

I'm only suggesting we need to question general advice. For one I expect this group of individuals does not share the eating habits and excess body weight of the general population. Investigate multiple resources and make your best decisions factoring in what you know about yourself.

Extreme behavior, too much or too little of anything can hurt you...yes that includes water. If you have high blood pressure and already have adequate salt, ingesting more salt can be bad for you, I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated advice

You don't know that for sure.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:17 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated advice

Eating a little extra salt won't kill you either, unless you're inthe minority of hypertensives who react poorly to salt. We all need adequatesalt to manage our water balance.

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: in my younger days, my bp was always what I considered " too low " like

yours. One M.D. told me: " if you're thin (I was) and have low BP, you'll

live forever " ........

on 8/2/2003 11:51 AM, john roberts at johnhrob@... wrote:

Later

> losing a few tens of pounds and improving my dietary choices has dropped my

> BP to borderline low <100/60. I'm 54 now and wouldn't mind my BP rising some

> :-). Except for occasional dizziness upon standing too quickly I think I can

> live with the low BP,

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Hi ,

Yes, there are diseases that require or suggest that those afflicted eat sodium

to control it. I recall a lady with a rare disease in one of the cr groups (I

can't find the ref just now). But it didn't require amounts in the area of 6 -

10 grams sodium. Maybe you could enlighten me how much is required for those or

for your condition.

Salt of course can be used to raise BP - I've done that on occasion when

over-medicated - so there's another special case. I'm not sure of the mechanism

because the serum sodium normally doesn't change much.

For dietary req'ts we have anything from 100 mg to 10 grams, depending on which

source (and which era) you look at. U.S. is presently 2.4 grams and that should

be the max (except for those marines), 1.5 grams for HTNer's. Exceptional cases

requiring 1 qt of water per hour will excrete about 100mg x 32 oz or 3.2 grams

of sodium per hour. I've not found how high their pressure goes with that intake

and workload.

If you look at hyponatremia or hypernatremia, the refs will say they are due to

the kidney not controlling serum sodium. Electrolytes are controlled by the

system. The body has as I recall about 350 grams of sodium in reserve if it

wants to use it.

There are also diseases that require a low sodium diet (Meniere's disease,eg).

There is

Sodium Wasting - usually a transient condition just preceding the development of

end-stage renal disease. Clinical Syndrome of Inappropriate Antidiuretic Hormone

(SIADH) is associated with a number of problems.

But I think this group is not about diagnosing sodium problems or recommending

solutions for disease. I assume your friends with low sodium problems are

talking to their dr.

Also I find it a little perturbing when general rec's of 5 to 10 glasses of

water pd, are suggested, because there are probably many who don't need to drink

that much. My cardio says drink when you're thirsty - that implies a fluid rate

a heart can handle. I remember 5 glasses as a max number for CHF. I drink on

average 5 pints per day, not counting any fluid from foods and I find that a

limiting factor extending excretion to later in the evening.

You might need more to support your extra sweating.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:51 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] .. just some opinionated advice

You are no doubt correct " in general " . Anyone eating modest amounts of processed

food will get more than enough sodium. However I am aware of at least two

individuals with presumably very healthful diets who were not getting adequate

sodium and suffered symptoms (lethargy, malaise) which reversed as soon as they

corrected the deficiency.

It is human nature to look at issues through our personal filters so let me

explain my personal experience and source of my bias. As a young adult eating

ad-lib I saw my blood pressure creep up from 120/80 to 135/90 and suspect I was

well on the road to your proposed " I'm sure that all people get hypertensive

sooner or later " . I hope you are at least a little right because regular

exercise brought my BP back down to below 120/80. Later losing a few tens of

pounds and improving my dietary choices has dropped my BP to borderline low

<100/60. I'm 54 now and wouldn't mind my BP rising some :-). Except for

occasional dizziness upon standing too quickly I think I can live with the low

BP, however I do add salt to some recipes and try to get daily minimum

recommendations.

I repeat we are all individuals and general advice is not for everyone... invest

a little effort to learn what you should be doing for your personal situation.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]

Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:02 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated

advice

I'm suggesting that ingesting any salt is not necessary and it's not just for

hypertensives. I've found no evidence that we need to add salt unless you're a

marine planning to march 8 hrs with a pack wearing full clothing and boots. Then

you might use more salt to retain more water at the start. But routine use is

for flavor only. foods contain plenty of sodium. You don't need salt to sweat

and as you get lower in sodium level you sweat a good deal less sodium out. It

can reach less than 100 mg per oz.

The idea that some hypertensives are " salt-sensitive " is coming under fire also.

One noted HTN expert thinks ALL hypertensives are salt sensitive and I can find

no evidence to disagree with that. And I'm sure that all people get hypertensive

sooner or later. It's an aging thing - I'm guessing a mitochondrial transport

function. Of course, limiting sodium for hypertensives does not cure the HTN -

it restricts the ability of the kidney to retain sodium.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:07 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated

advice

I apologize to any I irritated with my contrarian opinions/advice. The one thing

I know for sure is that I can't give any other individual arbitrary advice. You

need to adjust your behavior based on your personal circumstances.

I'm only suggesting we need to question general advice. For one I expect this

group of individuals does not share the eating habits and excess body weight of

the general population. Investigate multiple resources and make your best

decisions factoring in what you know about yourself.

Extreme behavior, too much or too little of anything can hurt you...yes that

includes water. If you have high blood pressure and already have adequate salt,

ingesting more salt can be bad for you, I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]

Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 7:15 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated

advice

You don't know that for sure.

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:17 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] was..Facts? on Water.. just some opinionated

advice

Eating a little extra salt won't kill you either, unless you're in

the minority of hypertensives who react poorly to salt. We all need adequate

salt to manage our water balance.

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Guest guest

> : in my younger days, my bp was always what I considered " too low "

like

> yours. One M.D. told me: " if you're thin (I was) and have low BP, you'll

> live forever " ........

:

She is right: When I was 22 working in São o, eating all kinds of

junkfoods:

Macs, chocolate cakes, etc. My BP was (!!) 80/50. Hahhaha... My

phisician

told me to gain a few kilos (pounds). That time I was 132 pounds. I asked

him about

caloric restriction and he said (!!) you are too young to think about this!

But I didn't folow him. I drop down my caloric intake, at that

time and (surprise!)

my BP increased to 120/80 and then drop solowly to 10/60 again, now it is

80/50 again.

What the explanation? I don't know. Perhaps an adapation to stress

hormones that

are higer in a CR organism.

So don't think that everything is " all right " because you eat ad-lib

and your BP is

low ................ AGING IS A SILENT ENEMY, like high blood

preassure...........

-- GAndhi.

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