Re: Losing weight on 6000 cals a day? Pubmed study: a calorie is NOT a calorie

[Guest guest]

Fascinating! This is a rather old study (1973). Have there been follow-up

studies to elucidate this phenomenon? I've not heard of the corn-oil diet.

>From: " paultheo2000 " <paultheo2000@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Losing weight on 6000 cals a day? Pubmed study: a

>calorie is NOT a calorie

>Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:10:56 -0000

>

>Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., " Response of Body Weight to a Low

>Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in

>Normal and Obese Subjects, " The American Journal of Clinical

>Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

>

>Summary:

>The object of this study was to analyze the relationship between

>carbohydrate and fat as it

>pertains to regulation of body weight. Five volunteers were fed a

>formula diet comprised of 168

>grams of carbohydrate, 64 grams of protein and 39 grams of fat for 45

>days. Every five days, the

>amount of fat in the diet was increased via ingestion of either corn

>oil or olive oil. Researchers

>noted that the body could use up to 600 grams of fat daily, and this

>utilization was not

>compromised in any form, meaning individuals experienced increases in

>thermogenisis. At daily

>intakes of 300 to 400 grams of fat, subjects reported feeling warm all

>over and had an increased

>tendency to sweat. The individuals consuming the olive oil experienced

>an average weight gain of

>20 pounds. ~~~~Individuals consuming corn oil, although ingesting

>approximately 6,000 calories per

>day, experienced a decrease in weight.~~~ Researchers postulated that

>this discrepancy was due to the

>corn oil containing more of a particular essential fatty acid

>(linoleic acid). Based on the

>results obtained from this pilot study, the researchers placed 25

>obese subjects on one of five

>diets varying in caloric value and ranging from

>low-fat/high-carbohydrate to

>high-fat/low-carbohydrate. All diets were supplemented with either

>corn oil or olive oil.

>Individuals consuming a low-fat, 855-calorie diet lost an average of

>1.1 pounds daily while

>individuals consuming a low-fat, 1,006-calorie diet lost an average of

>0.57 pounds daily. By

>comparison, the low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet group eating 1,707

>calories lost 0.66 pounds daily

>while those eating 2,150 calories lost 0.70 pounds daily, regardless

>of whether they ate corn oil

>or olive oil. Eating less did not significantly alter weight loss in

>the low-carbohydrate groups.

>Researchers believed that this was a result of an increased energy

>output in the higher calorie

>group released by the body in the form of heat. Researchers also

>concluded that the weight loss

>was not water loss due to the length of the study and the total amount

>of weight loss achieved.

>

>-

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I don't know... people kept asking for studies so I took 10 minutes to

look on pubmed. I didn't see any further study but I've seen similar

studies (ie: people losing more weight 1800 fat calories than 1200

carb calories).

Cheers,

-

> Fascinating! This is a rather old study (1973). Have there been

follow-up

> studies to elucidate this phenomenon? I've not heard of the corn-oil

diet.

>

>

> >From: " paultheo2000 " <paultheo2000@y...>

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: [ ] Losing weight on 6000 cals a day? Pubmed

study: a

> >calorie is NOT a calorie

> >Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:10:56 -0000

> >

> >Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., " Response of Body Weight to a Low

> >Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in

> >Normal and Obese Subjects, " The American Journal of Clinical

> >Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

> >

> >Summary:

> >The object of this study was to analyze the relationship between

> >carbohydrate and fat as it

> >pertains to regulation of body weight. Five volunteers were fed a

> >formula diet comprised of 168

> >grams of carbohydrate, 64 grams of protein and 39 grams of fat for 45

> >days. Every five days, the

> >amount of fat in the diet was increased via ingestion of either corn

> >oil or olive oil. Researchers

> >noted that the body could use up to 600 grams of fat daily, and this

> >utilization was not

> >compromised in any form, meaning individuals experienced increases in

> >thermogenisis. At daily

> >intakes of 300 to 400 grams of fat, subjects reported feeling warm all

> >over and had an increased

> >tendency to sweat. The individuals consuming the olive oil experienced

> >an average weight gain of

> >20 pounds. ~~~~Individuals consuming corn oil, although ingesting

> >approximately 6,000 calories per

> >day, experienced a decrease in weight.~~~ Researchers postulated that

> >this discrepancy was due to the

> >corn oil containing more of a particular essential fatty acid

> >(linoleic acid). Based on the

> >results obtained from this pilot study, the researchers placed 25

> >obese subjects on one of five

> >diets varying in caloric value and ranging from

> >low-fat/high-carbohydrate to

> >high-fat/low-carbohydrate. All diets were supplemented with either

> >corn oil or olive oil.

> >Individuals consuming a low-fat, 855-calorie diet lost an average of

> >1.1 pounds daily while

> >individuals consuming a low-fat, 1,006-calorie diet lost an average of

> >0.57 pounds daily. By

> >comparison, the low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet group eating 1,707

> >calories lost 0.66 pounds daily

> >while those eating 2,150 calories lost 0.70 pounds daily, regardless

> >of whether they ate corn oil

> >or olive oil. Eating less did not significantly alter weight loss in

> >the low-carbohydrate groups.

> >Researchers believed that this was a result of an increased energy

> >output in the higher calorie

> >group released by the body in the form of heat. Researchers also

> >concluded that the weight loss

> >was not water loss due to the length of the study and the total amount

> >of weight loss achieved.

> >

> >-

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> I don't know... people kept asking for studies so I took 10 minutes

> to look on pubmed. I didn't see any further study but I've seen

> similar studies (ie: people losing more weight 1800 fat calories

> than 1200 carb calories).

*****No question about the results of this study. I just wonder: is

consumption of all that fat *healthy*? Certainly losing bodyfat

(unless it is from an illness) benefits the body (up to a point).

But there are ways to lose bodyfat which produces damaging effects on

the body. I've seen smokers who are trim and fit looking, and yet we

KNOW what their lungs and cardiovascular systems are like. So I just

raise the question: did this method of losing bodyfat aid or injure

the body (or neither)? Is there any analysis of that? I'm not

challenging the results regarding loss of bodyfat; but there are

other issues to consider as well.

~ andy

[Guest guest]

In this study, no mention of the corn oil being completely digested.

Was it being completely digested, or evacuated in bowel movements?

That would be pivotal to know. If it were being completely digested

and not evacuatated, then there is DEFINITELY something unusual to

those calories. If not, then this is merely a digestion

problem/limit...not a calorie problem.

The highest calorie diet below is 2150 cal/day. That is NOT a high

calorie diet! Of course all of the OBESE SUBJECTS lost weight!

I wonder if any more RECENT studies have been done to disprove the

calorie is a calorie theory.

-cronmouse

> Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., " Response of Body Weight to a Low

> Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in

> Normal and Obese Subjects, " The American Journal of Clinical

> Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

>

> Summary:

> The object of this study was to analyze the relationship between

> carbohydrate and fat as it

> pertains to regulation of body weight. Five volunteers were fed a

> formula diet comprised of 168

> grams of carbohydrate, 64 grams of protein and 39 grams of fat for

45

> days. Every five days, the

> amount of fat in the diet was increased via ingestion of either corn

> oil or olive oil. Researchers

> noted that the body could use up to 600 grams of fat daily, and this

> utilization was not

> compromised in any form, meaning individuals experienced increases

in

> thermogenisis. At daily

> intakes of 300 to 400 grams of fat, subjects reported feeling warm

all

> over and had an increased

> tendency to sweat. The individuals consuming the olive oil

experienced

> an average weight gain of

> 20 pounds. ~~~~Individuals consuming corn oil, although ingesting

> approximately 6,000 calories per

> day, experienced a decrease in weight.~~~ Researchers postulated

that

> this discrepancy was due to the

> corn oil containing more of a particular essential fatty acid

> (linoleic acid). Based on the

> results obtained from this pilot study, the researchers placed 25

> obese subjects on one of five

> diets varying in caloric value and ranging from

> low-fat/high-carbohydrate to

> high-fat/low-carbohydrate. All diets were supplemented with either

> corn oil or olive oil.

> Individuals consuming a low-fat, 855-calorie diet lost an average of

> 1.1 pounds daily while

> individuals consuming a low-fat, 1,006-calorie diet lost an average

of

> 0.57 pounds daily. By

> comparison, the low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet group eating 1,707

> calories lost 0.66 pounds daily

> while those eating 2,150 calories lost 0.70 pounds daily, regardless

> of whether they ate corn oil

> or olive oil. Eating less did not significantly alter weight loss in

> the low-carbohydrate groups.

> Researchers believed that this was a result of an increased energy

> output in the higher calorie

> group released by the body in the form of heat. Researchers also

> concluded that the weight loss

> was not water loss due to the length of the study and the total

amount

> of weight loss achieved.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

I posted that study because people thought the " a calorie is not a

calorie " mantra is completely nuts. Concerning the health impact: good

question. That's what I've been trying to figure out. Obviously, low

bf is better than high bf in a given person.

The GM mice study mentions low body fat as well, although I can't

explain the specifics.

-

>

> > I don't know... people kept asking for studies so I took 10 minutes

> > to look on pubmed. I didn't see any further study but I've seen

> > similar studies (ie: people losing more weight 1800 fat calories

> > than 1200 carb calories).

>

>

> *****No question about the results of this study. I just wonder: is

> consumption of all that fat *healthy*? Certainly losing bodyfat

> (unless it is from an illness) benefits the body (up to a point).

> But there are ways to lose bodyfat which produces damaging effects on

> the body. I've seen smokers who are trim and fit looking, and yet we

> KNOW what their lungs and cardiovascular systems are like. So I just

> raise the question: did this method of losing bodyfat aid or injure

> the body (or neither)? Is there any analysis of that? I'm not

> challenging the results regarding loss of bodyfat; but there are

> other issues to consider as well.

>

> ~ andy

[Guest guest]

Thanks for evaluating the study in question. Why would the corn oil

not be digested?

Obese subjects all lost weight, but some more than others on a high

fat diet.

-

> > Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., " Response of Body Weight to a Low

> > Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in

> > Normal and Obese Subjects, " The American Journal of Clinical

> > Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

> >

> > Summary:

> > The object of this study was to analyze the relationship between

> > carbohydrate and fat as it

> > pertains to regulation of body weight. Five volunteers were fed a

> > formula diet comprised of 168

> > grams of carbohydrate, 64 grams of protein and 39 grams of fat for

> 45

> > days. Every five days, the

> > amount of fat in the diet was increased via ingestion of either corn

> > oil or olive oil. Researchers

> > noted that the body could use up to 600 grams of fat daily, and this

> > utilization was not

> > compromised in any form, meaning individuals experienced increases

> in

> > thermogenisis. At daily

> > intakes of 300 to 400 grams of fat, subjects reported feeling warm

> all

> > over and had an increased

> > tendency to sweat. The individuals consuming the olive oil

> experienced

> > an average weight gain of

> > 20 pounds. ~~~~Individuals consuming corn oil, although ingesting

> > approximately 6,000 calories per

> > day, experienced a decrease in weight.~~~ Researchers postulated

> that

> > this discrepancy was due to the

> > corn oil containing more of a particular essential fatty acid

> > (linoleic acid). Based on the

> > results obtained from this pilot study, the researchers placed 25

> > obese subjects on one of five

> > diets varying in caloric value and ranging from

> > low-fat/high-carbohydrate to

> > high-fat/low-carbohydrate. All diets were supplemented with either

> > corn oil or olive oil.

> > Individuals consuming a low-fat, 855-calorie diet lost an average of

> > 1.1 pounds daily while

> > individuals consuming a low-fat, 1,006-calorie diet lost an average

> of

> > 0.57 pounds daily. By

> > comparison, the low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet group eating 1,707

> > calories lost 0.66 pounds daily

> > while those eating 2,150 calories lost 0.70 pounds daily, regardless

> > of whether they ate corn oil

> > or olive oil. Eating less did not significantly alter weight loss in

> > the low-carbohydrate groups.

> > Researchers believed that this was a result of an increased energy

> > output in the higher calorie

> > group released by the body in the form of heat. Researchers also

> > concluded that the weight loss

> > was not water loss due to the length of the study and the total

> amount

> > of weight loss achieved.

> >

> > -

[Guest guest]

Not everything that one puts in their gut is digested completely.

Perhaps oils high in polyunsaturated fats take more time to digest in

a refined form...I don't know. If they do, then that could explain

why they don't register the weight gain from the corn oil as opposed

to the olive oil. Or perhaps they vomited the oil. It's hard to

say. That was a study of ONLY 5 PEOPLE!

In 1999, I was on a calorie restricted (not CRON) diet of 1800

calories a day. I wrote down everything I ate and tabulated the

calories carefully. I also wrote down my weight on a weekly basis.

On my 12th week, I had actually gained a half pound. On some weeks I

lost twice what I normally lost. I monitored this over about 14

weeks (before I had gall bladder surgery...a diseased gall bladder is

often associated with low calorie diets...I'd like to know why THAT

is!). My weight loss was not steady...it was generally

downward...generally about 2 pounds a week. I had weeks of high loss

and low loss of weight (in one case some gain).

If I can have that much deviation in about 100 days of careful

monitoring, I'm not surprised at all by the differences in weight

loss in only 45 days of the study below. Add up the weight loss for

the different calorie levels.

The lowest calorie level lost 49.5 pounds (on a VERY low calorie

diet).

The other groups lost 25.65, 29.7, and 31.5 pounds respectively.

There were only 25 people TOTAL in the study...about 6.25 per group.

This is a pretty small study to make a big assertion from. However,

the LOWEST calorie consumption produced a very deviant weight loss

much more than the others. The others are too close together to

trust the results from such a small study.

If I were going to redo this study, I'd just concentrate on the last

three groups and use more people.

-cronmouse

> > > Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., " Response of Body Weight to a

Low

> > > Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in

> > > Normal and Obese Subjects, " The American Journal of Clinical

> > > Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

> > >

> > > Summary:

> > > The object of this study was to analyze the relationship between

> > > carbohydrate and fat as it

> > > pertains to regulation of body weight. Five volunteers were fed

a

> > > formula diet comprised of 168

> > > grams of carbohydrate, 64 grams of protein and 39 grams of fat

for

> > 45

> > > days. Every five days, the

> > > amount of fat in the diet was increased via ingestion of either

corn

> > > oil or olive oil. Researchers

> > > noted that the body could use up to 600 grams of fat daily, and

this

> > > utilization was not

> > > compromised in any form, meaning individuals experienced

increases

> > in

> > > thermogenisis. At daily

> > > intakes of 300 to 400 grams of fat, subjects reported feeling

warm

> > all

> > > over and had an increased

> > > tendency to sweat. The individuals consuming the olive oil

> > experienced

> > > an average weight gain of

> > > 20 pounds. ~~~~Individuals consuming corn oil, although

ingesting

> > > approximately 6,000 calories per

> > > day, experienced a decrease in weight.~~~ Researchers

postulated

> > that

> > > this discrepancy was due to the

> > > corn oil containing more of a particular essential fatty acid

> > > (linoleic acid). Based on the

> > > results obtained from this pilot study, the researchers placed

25

> > > obese subjects on one of five

> > > diets varying in caloric value and ranging from

> > > low-fat/high-carbohydrate to

> > > high-fat/low-carbohydrate. All diets were supplemented with

either

> > > corn oil or olive oil.

> > > Individuals consuming a low-fat, 855-calorie diet lost an

average of

> > > 1.1 pounds daily while

> > > individuals consuming a low-fat, 1,006-calorie diet lost an

average

> > of

> > > 0.57 pounds daily. By

> > > comparison, the low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet group eating

1,707

> > > calories lost 0.66 pounds daily

> > > while those eating 2,150 calories lost 0.70 pounds daily,

regardless

> > > of whether they ate corn oil

> > > or olive oil. Eating less did not significantly alter weight

loss in

> > > the low-carbohydrate groups.

> > > Researchers believed that this was a result of an increased

energy

> > > output in the higher calorie

> > > group released by the body in the form of heat. Researchers also

> > > concluded that the weight loss

> > > was not water loss due to the length of the study and the total

> > amount

> > > of weight loss achieved.

> > >

> > > -

[Guest guest]

The timeframe of this study is too short to report on long-term health

benefits. As for thermogenesis, that just means you're burning your body up

faster... The life-extension effect of CR seems to be very strongly related

to its *reduction* of body temperature. I would *suspect* that these

subjects would show *poor* health if they maintained a diet that promoted

very heightened thermogenesis...

Likewise, I'm not sure if all the oil was being digested, and I'd expect ANY

obese subjects to lose weight on a 2150 cal/day diet. The effect of

macronutrient profiles on the rate of weight reduction is well documented

for short-term diets that are calorically restricted (Atkins, Sears, among

others), but that wasn't your point was it? It also doesn't address

long-term health and long-term dietary habits.

> -----Original Message-----

> From: paultheo2000 [mailto:paultheo2000@...]

> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:11 AM

>

> Subject: [ ] Losing weight on 6000 cals a day? Pubmed

> study: a calorie is NOT a calorie

>

>

> Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., " Response of Body Weight to a Low

> Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in

> Normal and Obese Subjects, " The American Journal of Clinical

> Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

>

> Summary:

> The object of this study was to analyze the relationship between

> carbohydrate and fat as it

> pertains to regulation of body weight. Five volunteers were fed a

> formula diet comprised of 168

> grams of carbohydrate, 64 grams of protein and 39 grams of fat for 45

> days. Every five days, the

> amount of fat in the diet was increased via ingestion of either corn

> oil or olive oil. Researchers

> noted that the body could use up to 600 grams of fat daily, and this

> utilization was not

> compromised in any form, meaning individuals experienced increases in

> thermogenisis. At daily

> intakes of 300 to 400 grams of fat, subjects reported feeling warm all

> over and had an increased

> tendency to sweat. The individuals consuming the olive oil experienced

> an average weight gain of

> 20 pounds. ~~~~Individuals consuming corn oil, although ingesting

> approximately 6,000 calories per

> day, experienced a decrease in weight.~~~ Researchers postulated that

> this discrepancy was due to the

> corn oil containing more of a particular essential fatty acid

> (linoleic acid). Based on the

> results obtained from this pilot study, the researchers placed 25

> obese subjects on one of five

> diets varying in caloric value and ranging from

> low-fat/high-carbohydrate to

> high-fat/low-carbohydrate. All diets were supplemented with either

> corn oil or olive oil.

> Individuals consuming a low-fat, 855-calorie diet lost an average of

> 1.1 pounds daily while

> individuals consuming a low-fat, 1,006-calorie diet lost an average of

> 0.57 pounds daily. By

> comparison, the low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet group eating 1,707

> calories lost 0.66 pounds daily

> while those eating 2,150 calories lost 0.70 pounds daily, regardless

> of whether they ate corn oil

> or olive oil. Eating less did not significantly alter weight loss in

> the low-carbohydrate groups.

> Researchers believed that this was a result of an increased energy

> output in the higher calorie

> group released by the body in the form of heat. Researchers also

> concluded that the weight loss

> was not water loss due to the length of the study and the total amount

> of weight loss achieved.

>

> -

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I've seen similar studies (ie: people losing

> more weight 1800 fat calories than 1200 carb

> calories).

>

> Cheers,

>

> -

But only in the short-term. It levels off over time, and we're not really

chasing after rapid weight loss here anyway, which is associated with a

reduced lifespan...

Cheers,