Re: Long Term Weight Loss - Dietary Aids

[Guest guest]

> My approach is that I will use every effective tool at my

> disposal. I don't apologize. Long term weight control is tough.

> For most people, it is impossible. Statistics prove it.

> If we think we are " different " , or " better " , we fool ourselves.

>

> Any assistance we can get to reduce cravings helps.

> Whether it is replacement foods (like guar), or whether

> it is consuming more water in the diet (soups), or

> whether it is more veggies (fiber), or whether it is

> positive emotional support (friends), or whether it is

> dietary aids to reduce cravings (Satietrol), every tool to

> fight the battle of cravings (and the bulge) is going to win.

*****Apart from the issue of Satiertrol...

I'm curious about the difficulties experienced in " long term weight

control " (Warren, you say it is tough).

Are you referring to the type of weight control that is necessary to

fall within the parameters of CR?

Depending on how much below one's set point one aims to reach, yes,

this may be a very demanding challenge, no question about it. One

wants to avail one's self of every safe, healthy 'trick' in the

book! However, ...

I wonder if you are referring to the type of weight control which

brings one down to his/her set point (the normal " weight control "

issue about which the media is flooded with articles and reports

daily).

In regard to achieving one's set point:

I would submit that this is NOT at all difficult *physiologically*

for people who do have no untoward physical problems or abnormalities

(these would include a wide range of dilemmas, such as issues with

one's thyroid, hormones, or entire systems such as gastro, bowel,

endocrine, etc.).

I submit that what makes long term weight control " tough " for

the " average, normal " individual is inappropriate food choices: i.e.,

consuming foods that stimulate/provoke the appetite. (This would

therefore point to most commerically-prepared, refined foods. There

are a few foods in this categroy, e.g., the Original All Bran, which

satiate rather than arouse, the appetite.)

Eating a diet of primarily raw foods (most protein sources should

probably be cooked) and minimally processed, relatively UNrefined

foods allows the body's 'natural' appetite control mechanism to work

(assuming it's functioning properly, as said above).

Add on a few hundred daily calories of exercise (more, perhaps, if

one is a highly sedentary individual), and the body will take care of

itself. One's set point WILL be achieved, and there are many studies

which show that this even this level of bodyweight is *highly*

protective against the major " killers " in Western, modernized

society. (Although such weight loss is a good step in the right

direction, it is not - with a high order of probability - as

protective or effective as CR, to be sure!)

The above does not, however, address the *psychological* issues of

diet change. THAT is a whole other can of worms.

I disagree heartily with Roy Walford who asserts " It's not that hard

to reprogram yourself " (p. 17, BT120YD). I think the evidence which

demonstrates just how few people succeed in long term weight control

shows how challenging such 'control' actually is. For many, this is

the critical (and difficult) part: how does one exist in our fast-

food, fast-paced, consumer-driven society and eschew all those highly-

advertised, readily supplied, easy-to-prepare (or buy) foods? How

does one, as an adult, overcome the conditioning of 5, 10, 20 even 40

years of a diet loaded with salt, sugar, and fats (all of which

provoke, rather than, satisfy, the body's cravings for nourishment)?

These issues, I would argue, are the " difficult " part of weight

management.

And since the mind (psychology) is not separate from the body, my

initial assertion (that it is not difficult, physiologically, to

reach one's set point), is not - in the Larger Picture - accurate.

What is more accurate is this: the notion of 'level of difficulty'

is probably a continuum with 'reaching one's set point' being

substantially less difficult than 'challening one's set point via CR.'

While it is accurate that, given the appropriate food, the body

will 'take care of itself' and its set point will be reached (barring

any physiological problems), getting the appropriate food INTO the

body is the challenge!

I was also pointing to a personal 'experiment': moi! :-)) Clearly

a reprogramming of my dietary habits took place, and it transpired

fully over about 3 days. I take absolutely NO credit, however, for

this. It was not a matter of Andy's " will power " or his " effort. "

Neither did it arise from a fear of my cancer returning. If that had

been the motivation, it would have begun once the cancer was

discovered, 6 months earlier; many of you would be appalled!! at the

foods, both type and quantity, that I consumed during my

chemotheraphy!!! A veritable smorgasboard of type II diabetes

provokers and cardiovascular killers!! Hahaha!!! One alternative-

medicine doc - a phd type - mentioned that he had NEVER seen a cancer

patient recover having eaten the type of horrific diet I did during

my treatment. Perhaps he needs to modify his theories. ;-)

In any case, the 'change,' if one wants to call it that, happened

when this bodymind organism (me) was " ready, " although I have no idea

*what* the mechanism was that achieved the change. (If you - or

anyone - is interested in the details of how the reprogramming

occured, I'll supply them, either here, publically, or privately.)

So...the upshot of this is that I don't know how to get anyone else

to 'drop' bad eating habits; I'm sure there are many out there who

have 'tricks' and methods that worked for them...which is no

assurance that such devices will work for another person...but if

they are safe and healthy, by all means! try them. It is strongly

felt that we change our unhealthful habits when we are 'ready' to do

so, and not a moment before. And, it has been seen that we have NO

control over when that will happen. For those of you who blanch at

such an statement, just consider: how many of us made honest,

sincere, heartfelt efforts to change our eating habits, all to no

avail, and then, suprisingly! on the nth try (3rd, 4th, 5th,

whatever!) the effort 'caught' and we found our new eating habits

both palatable and satisfying enough to maintain, long term. Why did

we succeed on that nth try, and not previously? Clearly 'we'

weren't " ready " before that. How does one make one's self " ready " ?

Ahh....there's a question to ponder!

> The average person fails over the long term unless they

> make permanent changes for the better that become habitual.

> That is the only approach that is GUARANTEED to work.

> And that is the safe and sane approach that list moderator

> Francesca advocates -- because it works, and it is the

> healthiest and safest. Do it.

*****In regard to this, I believe it was Dean Ornish who asserted

that Major Changes (in both diet and overall lifestyle) are far

easier to achieve than small, moderate ones (in the context of this

post the Major Change would be a complete and radical diet

overhaul). Small, incremental changes, Ornish argues, almost

certainly guarantee back sliding, while Major Changes, since they put

one in such a dramatically " new " place, contain within them, the

seed, the potential, for success. I don't know if he is correct for

all people, but the reprogramming that happen to (within?) me, was,

in fact, a 'complete and radical diet overhaul,' and - after three

days of 'mourning' the loss of my old ways of eating - I had no

difficulty - really and truly! - NO difficulty following the new

eating plan. Again, I am not sanguine that this will work for

everyone (or even most people); I just know that it was effective

with me and, as Ornish has had some success with it, it probably

works for others also.

~ andy

[Guest guest]

Hi Andy:

I am VERY new to the practice of CR, but not to my own weight

control. I am wondering if any other CRONies have had experiences

similar to mine and would care to share.

I will not need to reprogram my eating habits much for quality, only

for quantity. I have a number of times (perhaps five) in the past 30

years found myself five to ten pounds 'overweight' and taken steps to

return to what I now know to be my 'set point' (my weight at

university when training 20 hours a week for endurance sports).

Each time I have tried to eat less. But for about three months I

have had difficulty losing weight. Then, each time, after about

three months, I have found that weight pretty much drops off

effortlessly without hunger (it is as if my stomach has shrunk). And

when I reach my set point it doesn't stop. I continue losing it,

without trying. The first couple of times this happened I was

alarmed - I wondered why my weight was falling so far. From

experience I now realize it is not a problem.

The same has happened this time. A few months ago I was five to ten

pounds over my set point. It took a few months to get my weight

moving down, but I am now below my set point and losing weight too

fast, in my opinion. So in the past week I have had to take fairly

aggressive action to stop it falling for a while.

So I am wondering what is in store as I try to drop gradually to a

preliminary target ten pounds below my set point. Have any others

here had similar experiences? If so, I would appreciate any input.

Rodney.

>

> > My approach is that I will use every effective tool at my

> > disposal. I don't apologize. Long term weight control is tough.

> > For most people, it is impossible. Statistics prove it.

> > If we think we are " different " , or " better " , we fool ourselves.

> >

> > Any assistance we can get to reduce cravings helps.

> > Whether it is replacement foods (like guar), or whether

> > it is consuming more water in the diet (soups), or

> > whether it is more veggies (fiber), or whether it is

> > positive emotional support (friends), or whether it is

> > dietary aids to reduce cravings (Satietrol), every tool to

> > fight the battle of cravings (and the bulge) is going to win.

>

>

> *****Apart from the issue of Satiertrol...

>

> I'm curious about the difficulties experienced in " long term weight

> control " (Warren, you say it is tough).

>

> Are you referring to the type of weight control that is necessary

to

> fall within the parameters of CR?