Re: Lab Animals and Vitamins

[Guest guest]

Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:29 am

hsanborn2@a... Peg Wrote:

The monkeys studied currently have standard monkey chow pellets consisting of barley, corn, one other grain and brewers yeast.

Hi Peg,

Can you provide any more details than this? We should have posted here in the archives or file area much more detail about the rodent & primate diets.

I can't find much of anything.

If you have more detailed information please share with us.

Thanks!

Live Long & Optimally!

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Peg:

So one might presume that the supplements are not necessary.

Indeed, it is even conceivable (only, at this stage, conceivable)

that, since ALL nutrients are being resticted in the rat CR

experiments, it may even be some of the nutrients we believe to be

desirable that are causing the reduction in lifespan in the fully fed

animals.

So, just possibly, supplements may be counter-productive.

Pure speculation here. But if the rats that live 50% longer aren't

getting them ...........

I will be following up on this with Weindruch and Mattson as you

suggested. Thanks for that.

Rodney.

> In reviewing all my clippings regarding CR and lab experiments, I

see no

> mention of supplementation. Because researchers are working to

determine whether

> CR extends life and why, it stands to reason that vitamin

supplements would

> invalidate the experiments. The monkeys studied currently have

standard monkey

> chow pellets consisting of barley, corn, one other grain and

brewers yeast.

> Peg

[Guest guest]

From Weindruch's U Wisc web page:

" Mice on CR eat about one-half as many calories as do controls while

consuming the same amounts of proteins, vitamins and minerals. In one

of our studies, CR increased the average life span to 45 months from

32 months, and increased by 34% the maximum (10th decile) life span

to 53 months from 40 months. Overall tumor incidence was 78% in the

control group vs. 38% in the CR group "

So it looks like they do NOT just get half as much chow. The

reduction in calories appears to be in carbohydrates and fats, while

maintaining the same amount of protein, vitamins and minerals. So in

effect it seems they ARE taking supplements - if I understand it

correctly.

I haven't located Weindruch's email address yet.

Rodney.

> > In reviewing all my clippings regarding CR and lab experiments, I

> see no

> > mention of supplementation. Because researchers are working to

> determine whether

> > CR extends life and why, it stands to reason that vitamin

> supplements would

> > invalidate the experiments. The monkeys studied currently have

> standard monkey

> > chow pellets consisting of barley, corn, one other grain and

> brewers yeast.

> > Peg

[Guest guest]

I guess you guys are all familiar with the following, from Mattson:

" Dr. Mattson and his colleagues found mice that were fasted every

other day but were allowed to eat unlimited amounts on intervening

days had lower blood glucose and insulin levels than either a control

group, which was allowed to feed freely, or a calorically restricted

group, which was fed 30 percent fewer calories daily than the control

group. Despite fasting, the meal-skipping mice tended to gorge when

provided food so they did not eat fewer calories than the control

group. This finding in mice suggests that meal-skipping improves

glucose metabolism and may provide protection against diabetes, Dr.

Mattson says " .

But the news release doesn't say the fasting mice lived longer. And

if they had, surely we would have been told. Right?

Rodney.

> > > In reviewing all my clippings regarding CR and lab experiments,

I

> > see no

> > > mention of supplementation. Because researchers are working

to

> > determine whether

> > > CR extends life and why, it stands to reason that vitamin

> > supplements would

> > > invalidate the experiments. The monkeys studied currently have

> > standard monkey

> > > chow pellets consisting of barley, corn, one other grain and

> > brewers yeast.

> > > Peg

[Guest guest]

Hi Peg:

Aha. So I will try find a detailed list of exactly what the

restricted and non-restricted animals are eating, in 'known to be

successful' experiments.

I remain curious about the lack of occasional 140 year old Okinawans!

Rodney.

> Also, I have just found in Nutrition Action Newsletter,Sept.

2003: " Both

> groups are supplemennted with vitamins and minerals and trace

elements to make

> sure they don't get short-changed on micronutrients. " That's Nat.

Instit. on

> Aging monkeys study going on now. Now we have to find out what

and how much

> supplements! Many members of another CR group called " the other

list " rely on

> a single daily multiple. Peg