Re: On Aging Reversal Issue

[Guest guest]

o: so what you're saying is that THEORETICALLY this is possible, but

it's not happening yet (in us CRONIES)????

on 11/1/2003 6:03 AM, ronaldo.luiz.alonso at ronaldo.luiz.alonso@...

wrote:

> The possibility to do this *today* is science

> fiction, because we just don't know what exactly

> is going wrong. To acess this we would need an analisis

> and simulation tool unacessible:

> Large Scale Computer Data Analisis and Simulation

> of an ENTIRE cell.

> The power of computers today (believe me) is yet a

> bottleneck for real time simulations of the cell, of

> this kind.

> But there's hope!!

[Guest guest]

Comes to mind that the aging discussed is that which CAN be reversed. Those with partial "aging".

Not a fully glycated cell. So cells with no circ could not be "reversed". They are not even removed to make way for new cells or prompt new cells. They are nor even thought about

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: ronaldo.luiz.alonso

Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 5:03 AM

Subject: [ ] On Aging Reversal Issue

Hi Francesca, Warren and Rodney: I readed the entire paper of Dr. Spindler at PNASthat the Warren cited below in 1999. What Spindler claims is quite surprising: CR imposes imediate changes in gene expression (measured by DNA microarray experiments). The geneexpression when CR is imposed, changes to the samepatterns seen in youth. CR changes the activity of11.000 genes and not only delays aging, but partially *reverses* it. But only *partially*. What cames into mind of people affictioned inscience, like I am, is that CR may be turning on genesthat can potentially reverse aging. The microarray (DNA chip put inside the cell)shows that these genes are off when the cell is producingenergy. But are turned on when the cell produces lessenergy. In other words, the production of energyis something that do little "biochemical hurts" inside the cell and the genes that can potentially recover from these hurts are off when cell is producing energy, that is, hurting itself. When the hurt stops, the miraculous nanorobots ofnature (proteins) that are produced by the mRNA trascribed by the genes turned on by CR, begintheir work correcting these damages in a veryefficient and perfect way. The reconstruction is not perfect:Some information is lost, of course. This is one point: The view of aging as something like "information loss" process. This view can be considered consistent with studies on Hutchinson-Gifford syndrome (cromossomal abnormalitieslead to lifespan of 16 years in children). Suchsyndrome involves lots of information lost. Information loss aging, is rather especulative, but is nonethless plausible, and deserves attention. That may be for example,the reason fasting and EOD feeding can increaselifespan. Not because aging is only retarded, butperhaps because it is even being reversed in such experiments and that is the "exposure to the caloriesby tissues" that counts, not only calories, calories... The second point is that reversing aging isaways impossible without modifications on thecell's energy production structure : The energy necessary for the *complete* reversion of cells aging is *aways* grater than theenergy that the damaged mithocondria can provide. You ask: How can we solve this problem? Possible answer: By nanothecnology. Put extrananorobots inside the cell. Not only nanorobots thatrepair structural damage in the cell (what is alreadydone by miraculous reparative proteins) but nanorobots that correctwhat is making energy production less eficient.What is going wrong for this process happen. The possibility to do this *today* is sciencefiction, because we just don't know what exactlyis going wrong. To acess this we would need an analisisand simulation tool unacessible: Large Scale Computer Data Analisis and Simulationof an ENTIRE cell. The power of computers today (believe me) is yet abottleneck for real time simulations of the cell, of this kind. But there's hope!! Just stay alive in the next 30-50 and you will see things that no one could imaginewhen was get born.-- The inspired student Gandhi.http://www.rense.com/general1__________________________________________________________________________Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!http://antipopup.uol.com.br/

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Comes to mind that the aging discussed is that which CA

N be reversed. Those with partial " aging " .

> Not a fully glycated cell. So cells with no circ could

not be " reversed " . They are not even removed to make way

for new cells or prompt new cells. They are nor even th

ought about

Yes!

In this case it's impossible to

recover to the same state you started because of

information loss (my theory of aging).

E.g. If you try to recover information

from a very old photography using techniques of

image processing, it is required for the photo

to have enough information in in order for it

to be fully recovered, otherwise the recovered photo

will not be identical to the original one!

That is the case of a fully glicated cell that

loosed a lot of information of it's previous state.

This cell, unfortunatelly, need to be sacrified...!

and you have to divide another one, loosing part of

the telomer of the cell being diveded ...

Glycation process is much more macroscopic

(proteins are macromolecules and free radicals ionic

small molecules). But glicated synapses in neurons

can be recovered (hopefully)

because of the plasticity of these cells.

Neurons can form new sinapses even in a very old

age, but they need energy to do so! : Exemplifying:

If the mithocondria in an neuron is damaged than

the neuron cannot recover glycated synapes and it

dies, that's why some other intervention is needed

to keep us intelligent even in a very advanced age.

CR increases proteasomes (CR decreases

the level of oxidased proteins). Proteins glicoxidased

for instance, are destroided when the organism is

in CR and new good proteins are produced. It's like

prunning a tree. I hope I can prune my bad sinapes

in a near future and build new good ones .

-- Gandhi.

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[Guest guest]

> o: so what you're saying is that THEORETICALLY

this is possible, but

> it's not happening yet (in us CRONIES)????

Everything is a matter of interpretation.

Scientists will promptly desagree with me here, when

I say that aging can be reversed.

Acording to the interpretation they give to

the aging, aging is aways irreversible.

OK in THEIR interpretation.

Acording to MY interpretation of aging process NO.

For instance: I consider the DNA repair done

by DNA repair enzimes as a " aging-reversal feature " not

as " anti-aging " feature.

Perhaps the repaired DNA will not have

it's nucleotide basis exactly in the same position

they were before the damage took place.

But as soon as the repair enzimes

begin to act, even if they were unable to put the basis

back in exactly the right place, they in fact do

some correction of the basis positions.

The " distance " between the two sequences

of DNA (sequence before aging and sequence after

aging), mesured by some mathematical metric

(e.g. shift-space metric) is very small .

This small distance would

never happen if, say, we lacked DNA repair enzimes!!

My interpretation of this is:

" small aging reversal tooking place " .

Funny, isn't it?

It's dificult to explain the ideas clearly

without using information theory and a lot of math.

I would never do this here. But the central idea

of my thesis is contained in the lines above.

I think I can justify this to a peer, and he would

not consider the thing as " nonsense " .

The fact is that it's impossible to reach **exactly**

the same state you were before aging took place:

In this sense, aging is **aways** irreversible,

the best you can theoretically do is to

reach a " aproximate " funcional state by I process

that I consider as " reversing process " .

In this point of view CR, partially reverses

aging that ocurred, say in

a day or week before (because of change in the

gene expression).

CR do not revert acumulated aging !! It's nonsense!!

CR aging reversing feature is a

transitory phenomenon (in my interpretation).

As soon as you begin to eat again,

aging (and acumulated damage) continues to happen.

To reverse *acumulated* aging (acording

to Yu in the handbook of phisiology - section 11 -

Chapter 12) and my ideas,

you would need an quantity of energy

that the organism could NEVER provide alone.

NEVER! (it need to receive some external thing).

Further, the information present in the

DNA, for the fully recover should be INTACT, what

is not true in the eldery person:

His/her DNA is also damaged!

If you really want exactly the same state, acording

to you, only re-initialization could adress the problem.

Get a crionized cell that you had when you were

say 16, and reconstruct an entire organ from it.

The organ will have a biological age of 16 and

could be transplanted.

What is the problem of this approach?

The problem is that same thing (of course) could

not be done with brain cells without affecting

the psicology of the person. It's like modifying

a computer program adding new lines of code.

A more conservative thing would be to understant

exactly is what is going wrong on the cell, to

make it age, than block this process,

namely the process that makes the cell unfunctional,

causes apoptosis or leads it to cancer or

other pathological state.

This is a strong medicine. But to achieve it,

you have to know everything about the cell.

You will need to know all the

the admissible states a cell can reach without goint

into cancerous our non-functional states.

This achieve this high level

knowledge we would require a high computational power

to simulate all these states in computers.

This information is unacessible by the techiques

we have today. We need to analize the full range

of states of an cell by computer simulations and

have a complete map of cell activity (that will

vary from cell to cell).

The power of the today's computers do not allow

us to do this.

So we are not able to alow aging progress in

safe modes (in the sence of scientists) without re-

initialization of the cells!

You will eventually

reach the cancerous state or apoptosis in the end.

I believe this is the main reason why scientists

are so amazed by cloning and other re-initialization

techniques.

Finally I have to say that I do not have scientific

reputation yet to address these questions in the full

scale range, step by step and in an every day basis.

Science is progressive, it's like building

a house: we start from the botton and reach the top.

Not the contrary. The ideas I have exposed makes

sense to me, but to others they would seem absurd,

To scape from this I need to carefully justify they

(either biologically and mathematically) to do so

they need to be perfectly organized for the

peer to accept. Otherwise I would reach the cientific

ostracism.

But just by now I don't have

time to write such an book... Some day these

ideas of mine put here will be well justified.

By now (as Fermat did in his last theorem)

I let the public comment and criticize for

free, because I cannot send a book by an e-mail

(lots of laugh)

(perhaps I can learn something from the critics...)

-- GAndhi.

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[Guest guest]

> this is possible, but

> > it's not happening yet (in us CRONIES)????

Francesca, I forgot to give an answer your question

in my last e-mail:

Theoretically YES, but to achieve this we need a

complete map of cell's activity and an true aging

reversal intervention.

This can't be done by current technology but

in the future to come (next 50 or 60 years) this

will be in hand: An arsenal of medicines (untested of

course).

Ready the last e-mail on the

subjec carefully and you will see

that my claim makes some sense.

-- Gandhi.

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