Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

[Guest guest]

Sam,

I have read the same thing many times in articles and books...that long term

patients on Armour with EXTREMELY low TSH have incredible bone density

scans, like perfect!

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Sam

Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:30 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Low TSH causes osteoporosis, eh? Let's see, I had bone severe loss

from synthroid and from being severely hypOthyroid, and my TSH was no

where near supressed. On Armour, dosed by symptoms, and with such a

little TSH that it would probably scare Chuck and to pieces, I

have excellent bone density - aka bones of steel...at least according

to the bone density testing I have had. Yea, and according to all the

wild fun I have, too.

Sam

> >

> >

> > Chuck- not according to TED Friedman, MD who is a specialist in

thyroid

> > diseases and USES armour in his practice. He does research at

both

> > Cedars Sinai and at Drew university- which is part of LA county

system.

> > Plus, My doc Prudence Hall, MD also says the the same thing and

she

> > prescribes and USES armour in her practice.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

and I agree with that- my only concern is for the patients who have just started

armour and have NOT reached their optimal dose! they are the ones at the most

risk or the ones with unique genetics that may not improve on armour and we

providers would be practicing MALPRACTICE if we did not worry about that.

nancie

RE: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Sam,

I have read the same thing many times in articles and books...that long term

patients on Armour with EXTREMELY low TSH have incredible bone density

scans, like perfect!

Neil

_____

.

[Guest guest]

Hi Nancie,

I understand your perspective, as someone that treats patients you have to

cover the overall health of the patient and be responsible. When a patient

shows an incredibly low TSH, that additional tests like bone scan, FT3 and

FT4, heart and BP checks, to make sure they are ok.

I think where Sam (don't ever mean to speak for her 'cause she can speak for

herself!, but I have read her story) and I are coming from is that we feel

SO let down by the " TSH is all " doctor crowd we tend to be very skeptical of

even hearing the word...TSH!

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Nancie Barnett

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:21 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

and I agree with that- my only concern is for the patients who have just

started armour and have NOT reached their optimal dose! they are the ones at

the most risk or the ones with unique genetics that may not improve on

armour and we providers would be practicing MALPRACTICE if we did not worry

about that.

nancie

RE: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Sam,

I have read the same thing many times in articles and books...that long term

patients on Armour with EXTREMELY low TSH have incredible bone density

scans, like perfect!

Neil

_____

..

[Guest guest]

Neil-

I respect that. the thing is I can definitely understand Sam's and your

perspective, because I feel like you do. even though I am a medical provider, I

still have had my own share of bad providers.

nancie

RE: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Sam,

I have read the same thing many times in articles and books...that long term

patients on Armour with EXTREMELY low TSH have incredible bone density

scans, like perfect!

Neil

_____

.

[Guest guest]

IMO you do not know enough about how to use Armour and other hormones.

Gracia

and I agree with that- my only concern is for the patients who have just

started armour and have NOT reached their optimal dose! they are the ones

at the most risk or the ones with unique genetics that may not improve on

armour and we providers would be practicing MALPRACTICE if we did not worry

about that.

nancie

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[Guest guest]

join the iodine group to see what success ppl are having, and also how to

use iodine effectively.

http://www.iodine

Gracia

Good grief...I left out the " Iodine " reference being helpful in hashi's.

Yikes, my brain if foggy!!

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

I must say, I have been reading that hashi's is helpful in

autoimmune and then read that it is not. It is so confusing...why is it so

confusing? We hear it is bad, then we hear it is good. What is the truth?

To Gracia's and Sam's defense, they can only share what their conscience

says to share. And to others who don't support their side, they can only

share what they think to be right. I think we all care, we just need to

find the truth.

Where do we start?

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

IMO no one should be taking Boniva and fosomax. everyone should be taking

magnesium, vit D, iodine.

I have a low TSH, perfect frees, and my bone density has increased 100%, if

my teeth are any indication.

Gracia

Sam-

excuse me but I know very well how the thyroid and anterior pituitary works

and what the meds will do to their hormones.

What you seem to ignore is that while we do not use the TSH to manage the

Hypo T with , WE DO USE TO MONITOR IT AS FAR AS THE ADVERSE REACTION CALLED

afib AND OSTEO. you simple do not get that for some people AFIB and osteo

can be life threatening. if these conditions are not adrenal related. yes,

that is correct people can still get AFIB and osteo even if their adrenals

are ok. so, all we want to do is make sure that they do not get AFIB and

osteo.

as far as Bonita and Foamex and actonel goes you are absolutely wrong. they

do IMPROVE bone density and 1000's of patients that are on them will tell

you so!! Take me for example, I take them and it has improved my bone

density!! and as far as your claim that dentist will not pull out teeth in

people who take them- that is FALSE!! have had to have multiple teeth

pulled because my bile reflux and have had multiple implants done and that

has NEVER been an issue. in fact all the oral surgeons have been happy that

I am addressing my osteo.

I think my dentist, who is also a Chinese MD, will have a good laugh with

that and so will the staff at UCLA school of dentistry and my

rheumatologist Bevra Hahn who is chief of rheum at UCLA and is the foremost

expert on sle and osteo in the world.

Now, if you take these meds and not have osteo- then that is just plain

crazy because if will add bone where they don't need it. that MD should

have his/her license nailed. NO one I know gives this class of medication

without having a diagnosis of either osteopenia or osteoporosis. that is

just plain malpractice.

Excuse me sam- but I have never said that the dose you take is wrong for

you- what ever works for you, great. BUT that DOES NOT mean that it WILL

work for everyone. I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND THUS

EVERYONE'S DOSE MAY BE DIFFERENT. especially with thyroid and iodine.

I HAVE ALSO NEVER STATED THAT YOU ARE HYPER OR HYPO T. ALL I AM SAYING IS

THAT TOO LOW OF A TSH CAN HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE AFIB AND OSTEO. THAT

IS A FACT That 100's of medical providers will also state regardless of

whether they practice allopathic or natural medicine.. It is just a

Scientific FACT.

I am fully aware that you have no thyroid gland and that you need a higher

dose of armour than people who still have a thyroid and I am fully aware

that you need higher doses of iodine that someone else. All I am asking is

that you accept that these side effects do happen and for some people it

would be malpractice for medical providers not to be concerned for the

patient. I am also fully aware that when you find the right dose of armour

or other thyroid medication- the issue of AFIB and Osteo can go away.

nancie

.

[Guest guest]

no not a joke dearest.

iodine docs believe that iodine is the cure for hashis.

well it lowers the antibodies levels but you may still have an underactive

thyroid gland.

this is allopathic vs holistic medicine so choose who you want to believe.

those of us who take iodine keep trying to tell you guys that there is

something to it, that the conventional docs have it all wrong on iodine. all

we can do is keep saying it.

right now Shomon is working with Dr. Brownstein (iodine doc).

Gracia

Okay, I feel bad about how strong I came across.

Maybe what you said, Gracia, was a joke. It's just

hard hearing something phrased as " a cure for hashi's "

and said so lightly because there isn't a cure. Some

things reduce antibodies or even get rid of them

completely (supposedly) but once you stop doing these

things it's back to square one and you still have a

crappy thyroid that perhaps like me, you struggle with

every day.

Peace,

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[Guest guest]

you might want to look at http://www.drbrownstein.com

Gracia

Gracia that isn't even close to being funny and cute.

And if you're being serious ... I don't even know what

to say.

Peace,

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[Guest guest]

Neil, Sam's comments have no bearing on what Armour did or didn't do for

her. She uses sex hormones, and both estrogen and testosterone are huge

builders of bone. There would be no way to determine then what gave her

" bones of steel " . Armour is A tad misrepresented in this statement.

Dusty

Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Low TSH causes osteoporosis, eh? Let's see, I had bone severe loss

from synthroid and from being severely hypOthyroid, and my TSH was no

where near supressed. On Armour, dosed by symptoms, and with such a

little TSH that it would probably scare Chuck and to pieces, I

have excellent bone density - aka bones of steel...at least according

to the bone density testing I have had. Yea, and according to all the

wild fun I have, too.

Sam

> >

> >

> > Chuck- not according to TED Friedman, MD who is a specialist in

thyroid

> > diseases and USES armour in his practice. He does research at

both

> > Cedars Sinai and at Drew university- which is part of LA county

system.

> > Plus, My doc Prudence Hall, MD also says the the same thing and

she

> > prescribes and USES armour in her practice.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dusty,

I always get my information from more than one source. While Sam has great

information, I do know her dosage of Armour would be too much for me though.

And she would be the first one to tell that.

As far as osteoporosis goes...I can quote this website that I paste below. I

also think the critical supplement for preventing bone loss is the

restoration of blood levels of vitamin D to 50ng/ml.

Neil

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/armour-and-your-bones/

" "

Armour & Your Bones

It's a common scare tactic by uninformed doctors when you're on desiccated

thyroid and feeling great: " Your TSH is too low and you will get

osteoporosis. "

But patients have found out that this is totally ludicrous. A low TSH while

on desiccated thyroid simply means you are giving yourself the thyroid

hormones you need, and the pituitary gland has no need to demand a thing.

Dr. Derry, in his book " Breast Cancer and Iodine " , remembers that

before labs were used to diagnosis and treat thyroid disorders (i.e. before

1973), " the normal dose of thyroid was three times the level seen now and

there were no cases of fractures or osteoporosis ever reported in the

previous 80 years. "

In fact, he also surmises that patients on doses used before labs came into

existence " felt better, energetic and motivated, so they remained more

active during all of their lives. " And this fact would be another factor in

stopping Osteoporosis!

The following is a remarkable testimony of a patient concerning Armour and

her bone density:

More than ten years ago, while taking synthetic Thyroid replacement

hormones, a bond density study was done on me. The results were " okay " (that

was in the days before I cared enough to get the real results).

I had my second bond density test done today. I have been on Armour since

late 1999. The results? The test shows that I am adding bone mass! The nurse

started to check my records to see if I was taking any medication to

accomplish this, but I told her not to waste her time because I wasn't

taking anything for that. She checked my history sheet and records to see

what else I am taking. The only prescriptions being used right now are

Armour (every day) and Celebrex (PRN when needed). That is when I told her

what she needed to know.. " Armour Thyroid contains T4, T3, T2, T1 and

Calcitonin. The Calcitonin is what is needed to build or rebuild bone mass. "

The doctor resisted putting me on Armour because he had been told that T3

can speed up the loss of bone mass. Now I can tell him that the proof is in

his own records that when it is given in *Natural* form via Armour, it is

beneficial, not detrimental to the body. Hooray for Armour! Oink! Oink!

**********

And, the following question and surprising answer comes from the ultra

conservative Thyroid Foundation of Canada website ), refuting the scare by

doctors that taking too much thyroid meds (i.e. suppressing the TSH) can

cause osteoporosis:

QUESTION 7:

I have been taking thyroxine 0.15 mg for the past 30 years. At my last

appointment with my new family physician, I was told my dose is too high. I

feel very well and don't look forward to the possibility of changing my

hormone level. However, I understand there are risks of osteoporosis when

thyroid hormone levels are too high. I wonder how great these risks are and

whether my current sense of well-being should be taken into consideration

when making a decision to change my dose of thyroxine.

ANSWER:

The treatment with thyroxine can be for two purposes, either to suppress

thyroid tissue or merely to treat hypothyroidism. It would be appropriate to

suppress TSH in the case of a goiter or previous treatment for thyroid

carcinoma. A low (subnormal) TSH may be due to pituitary damage, or may be

due to excess production of thyroxine or T3, or excess intake of these

agents. In the latter situation, the TSH is suppressed. However, when one is

trying to treat hypothyroidism, the ideal treatment would be to bring TSH

down into the normal range, but not suppress it necessarily. Nevertheless,

concerns which many physicians have expressed over the past few years about

osteoporosis if TSH is suppressed by thyroxine have proven recently to be

incorrect. Studies have shown NO reduction in bone mineral density, and no

osteoporosis when thyroxine is taken even in suppressive doses. Only when

patients have had actual Graves' disease - " overactive thyroid, " is there a

risk of osteoporosis and even that risk is small. Nevertheless, one should

strive for ideal therapy and the ideal for hypothyroidism is to have all

tests of thyroid function normal.

Bottom line: don't get fooled by the warning that a suppressed TSH, or a

free T3 at the top of the range, equates to Osteoporosis!! And being in the

" normal " range does not always equal optimal treatment.

And for you who put weight on studies, click here for one which did not find

a correlation between a suppressed TSH and loss of bone density.

________________________________

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Dusty

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:51 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: RE: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Neil, Sam's comments have no bearing on what Armour did or didn't do for

her. She uses sex hormones, and both estrogen and testosterone are huge

builders of bone. There would be no way to determine then what gave her

" bones of steel " . Armour is A tad misrepresented in this statement.

Dusty

Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Low TSH causes osteoporosis, eh? Let's see, I had bone severe loss

from synthroid and from being severely hypOthyroid, and my TSH was no

where near supressed. On Armour, dosed by symptoms, and with such a

little TSH that it would probably scare Chuck and to pieces, I

have excellent bone density - aka bones of steel...at least according

to the bone density testing I have had. Yea, and according to all the

wild fun I have, too.

Sam

> >

> >

> > Chuck- not according to TED Friedman, MD who is a specialist in

thyroid

> > diseases and USES armour in his practice. He does research at

both

> > Cedars Sinai and at Drew university- which is part of LA county

system.

> > Plus, My doc Prudence Hall, MD also says the the same thing and

she

> > prescribes and USES armour in her practice.

>

[Guest guest]

You also are using bio identical sex hormones, which have made your bones

and teeth twice as strong as they used to be. No secret about their

ability to do that. Funny you don't mention it here.

Here it comes again, that misrepresentation of the wonders of ONLY YOUR

drugs with perfect numbers according to where YOU DESIRE those numbers to be

and not any medical standard.

Dusty

Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

IMO no one should be taking Boniva and fosomax. everyone should be taking

magnesium, vit D, iodine.

I have a low TSH, perfect frees, and my bone density has increased 100%, if

my teeth are any indication.

Gracia

Sam-

excuse me but I know very well how the thyroid and anterior pituitary works

and what the meds will do to their hormones.

What you seem to ignore is that while we do not use the TSH to manage the

Hypo T with , WE DO USE TO MONITOR IT AS FAR AS THE ADVERSE REACTION CALLED

afib AND OSTEO. you simple do not get that for some people AFIB and osteo

can be life threatening. if these conditions are not adrenal related. yes,

that is correct people can still get AFIB and osteo even if their adrenals

are ok. so, all we want to do is make sure that they do not get AFIB and

osteo.

as far as Bonita and Foamex and actonel goes you are absolutely wrong. they

do IMPROVE bone density and 1000's of patients that are on them will tell

you so!! Take me for example, I take them and it has improved my bone

density!! and as far as your claim that dentist will not pull out teeth in

people who take them- that is FALSE!! have had to have multiple teeth

pulled because my bile reflux and have had multiple implants done and that

has NEVER been an issue. in fact all the oral surgeons have been happy that

I am addressing my osteo.

I think my dentist, who is also a Chinese MD, will have a good laugh with

that and so will the staff at UCLA school of dentistry and my

rheumatologist Bevra Hahn who is chief of rheum at UCLA and is the foremost

expert on sle and osteo in the world.

Now, if you take these meds and not have osteo- then that is just plain

crazy because if will add bone where they don't need it. that MD should

have his/her license nailed. NO one I know gives this class of medication

without having a diagnosis of either osteopenia or osteoporosis. that is

just plain malpractice.

Excuse me sam- but I have never said that the dose you take is wrong for

you- what ever works for you, great. BUT that DOES NOT mean that it WILL

work for everyone. I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND THUS

EVERYONE'S DOSE MAY BE DIFFERENT. especially with thyroid and iodine.

I HAVE ALSO NEVER STATED THAT YOU ARE HYPER OR HYPO T. ALL I AM SAYING IS

THAT TOO LOW OF A TSH CAN HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE AFIB AND OSTEO. THAT

IS A FACT That 100's of medical providers will also state regardless of

whether they practice allopathic or natural medicine.. It is just a

Scientific FACT.

I am fully aware that you have no thyroid gland and that you need a higher

dose of armour than people who still have a thyroid and I am fully aware

that you need higher doses of iodine that someone else. All I am asking is

that you accept that these side effects do happen and for some people it

would be malpractice for medical providers not to be concerned for the

patient. I am also fully aware that when you find the right dose of armour

or other thyroid medication- the issue of AFIB and Osteo can go away.

nancie

..

[Guest guest]

1) Armour has calcitonen in it, which " fixes " calcium to bone.

2) hormones are wonderful, but I have had to seriously decrease the estrogen

and progesterone, b/c of iodine and how it affects hormone receptors.

everything all together has made my teeth bigger! and harder!

hmmmm that could be a comercial for something.

Gracia

You also are using bio identical sex hormones, which have made your bones

and teeth twice as strong as they used to be. No secret about their

ability to do that. Funny you don't mention it here.

Here it comes again, that misrepresentation of the wonders of ONLY YOUR

drugs with perfect numbers according to where YOU DESIRE those numbers to be

and not any medical standard.

Dusty

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[Guest guest]

Dusty,

It is true that once an individuals treatment starts and they get positive

results, it is difficult to go back and separate exactly what was the

supplement or drug that was " the one " . It may be that it was the

simultaneous restoration of all the hormones and prohormone (vitamin D for

one), vitamins and minerals.

I would prefer to restore all of these natural levels rather than rely on

things like Fosamax, Prozac, Tylenol to get through the day. Unfortunately

it is only the latter that has the " scientific studies " that several on this

board INSIST on. How unfortunate.

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Dusty

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:04 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: RE: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

You also are using bio identical sex hormones, which have made your bones

and teeth twice as strong as they used to be. No secret about their

ability to do that. Funny you don't mention it here.

Here it comes again, that misrepresentation of the wonders of ONLY YOUR

drugs with perfect numbers according to where YOU DESIRE those numbers to be

and not any medical standard.

Dusty

Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

IMO no one should be taking Boniva and fosomax. everyone should be taking

magnesium, vit D, iodine.

I have a low TSH, perfect frees, and my bone density has increased 100%, if

my teeth are any indication.

Gracia

Sam-

excuse me but I know very well how the thyroid and anterior pituitary works

and what the meds will do to their hormones.

What you seem to ignore is that while we do not use the TSH to manage the

Hypo T with , WE DO USE TO MONITOR IT AS FAR AS THE ADVERSE REACTION CALLED

afib AND OSTEO. you simple do not get that for some people AFIB and osteo

can be life threatening. if these conditions are not adrenal related. yes,

that is correct people can still get AFIB and osteo even if their adrenals

are ok. so, all we want to do is make sure that they do not get AFIB and

osteo.

as far as Bonita and Foamex and actonel goes you are absolutely wrong. they

do IMPROVE bone density and 1000's of patients that are on them will tell

you so!! Take me for example, I take them and it has improved my bone

density!! and as far as your claim that dentist will not pull out teeth in

people who take them- that is FALSE!! have had to have multiple teeth

pulled because my bile reflux and have had multiple implants done and that

has NEVER been an issue. in fact all the oral surgeons have been happy that

I am addressing my osteo.

I think my dentist, who is also a Chinese MD, will have a good laugh with

that and so will the staff at UCLA school of dentistry and my

rheumatologist Bevra Hahn who is chief of rheum at UCLA and is the foremost

expert on sle and osteo in the world.

Now, if you take these meds and not have osteo- then that is just plain

crazy because if will add bone where they don't need it. that MD should

have his/her license nailed. NO one I know gives this class of medication

without having a diagnosis of either osteopenia or osteoporosis. that is

just plain malpractice.

Excuse me sam- but I have never said that the dose you take is wrong for

you- what ever works for you, great. BUT that DOES NOT mean that it WILL

work for everyone. I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND THUS

EVERYONE'S DOSE MAY BE DIFFERENT. especially with thyroid and iodine.

I HAVE ALSO NEVER STATED THAT YOU ARE HYPER OR HYPO T. ALL I AM SAYING IS

THAT TOO LOW OF A TSH CAN HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE AFIB AND OSTEO. THAT

IS A FACT That 100's of medical providers will also state regardless of

whether they practice allopathic or natural medicine.. It is just a

Scientific FACT.

I am fully aware that you have no thyroid gland and that you need a higher

dose of armour than people who still have a thyroid and I am fully aware

that you need higher doses of iodine that someone else. All I am asking is

that you accept that these side effects do happen and for some people it

would be malpractice for medical providers not to be concerned for the

patient. I am also fully aware that when you find the right dose of armour

or other thyroid medication- the issue of AFIB and Osteo can go away.

nancie

..

[Guest guest]

Yep, those hormones will do the trick! Lucky for you huh?

BTW, I saw the post where you increased the estrogen to 1 mg twice a day and

stopped the progestreone - posted just a few days ago. The amount of

estrogen you are using is no small amount. You never needed the

progesterone to begin with if you are minus your uterus and menopausal.

Sadly you cannot prove that the iodine is the reason for anyting. Every

woman, as she uses HT and ages has changes in her plateau's/needs for the

drugs. This means every woman, Gracia, not just hypo women.

Dusty

Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

1) Armour has calcitonen in it, which " fixes " calcium to bone.

2) hormones are wonderful, but I have had to seriously decrease the estrogen

and progesterone, b/c of iodine and how it affects hormone receptors.

everything all together has made my teeth bigger! and harder!

hmmmm that could be a comercial for something.

Gracia

You also are using bio identical sex hormones, which have made your bones

and teeth twice as strong as they used to be. No secret about their

ability to do that. Funny you don't mention it here.

Here it comes again, that misrepresentation of the wonders of ONLY YOUR

drugs with perfect numbers according to where YOU DESIRE those numbers to be

and not any medical standard.

Dusty

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..

[Guest guest]

Does this mean that the thyroid can start working

again, even after taking thyroid meds for years? I was

under the impression that the thyroid " forgets " how to

work after one starts taking medication.

Thanks,

>The " full replacement dosage " decreases in the last

>decades of life. My

>Mom was on 200 mcg most of her adult life but is now

>down to 75 mcg at

>age 83. Your mileage will definitely vary.

Chuck

--- <res075oh@...> wrote:

> Did you mean to put " iodine " where you put " hashi's "

> in the first

> sentence???

>

> The two positions are this: The scientific one that

> states that at least

> some of the time iodine can either trigger or

> exacerbate an autoimmune

> hashi's attack. This position is well supported by

> scientific

> evidence. Gracia's position seems to be that if you

> have a hashi's

> attack from iodine then you are not taking enough.

> Her evidence is from

> her own personal experience and from experience

> reported to her from

> others. In science such evidence is of little to no

> value; as there are

> no controls.

>

>

>

> >

> > Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

> >

>

<hypothyroidism/message/35663;_ylc=X3oDMTJxajVqbjl\

uBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzU2NjMEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIwMDk4NDE5Mw-->

> >

> >

> >

> > Posted by: " and Irwin "

> familyirwin@...

> >

>

<mailto:familyirwin@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Low%20Iron%20and%20Hypothyr\

oidism>

> > fritzalseth

> <fritzalseth>

> >

> >

> > Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:41 pm (PST)

> >

> > I must say, I have been reading that hashi's is

> helpful in autoimmune

> > and then read that it is not. It is so

> confusing...

> > why is it so confusing? We hear it is bad, then we

> hear it is good.

> > What is the truth? To Gracia's and Sam's defense,

> they can only share

> > what their conscience says to share. And to others

> who don't support

> > their side, they can only share what they think to

> be right. I think

> > we all care, we just need to find the truth.

> >

> > Where do we start?

> > Blessings,

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

neil- the problem with that argument is that some people who have certain

genetic diseases that interferes with their ability to absorb Vit. D and calcium

would be shit out of luck if they did not take a drug like fosamax or boniva.

nancie

Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

IMO no one should be taking Boniva and fosomax. everyone should be taking

magnesium, vit D, iodine.

I have a low TSH, perfect frees, and my bone density has increased 100%, if

my teeth are any indication.

Gracia

Sam-

excuse me but I know very well how the thyroid and anterior pituitary works

and what the meds will do to their hormones.

What you seem to ignore is that while we do not use the TSH to manage the

Hypo T with , WE DO USE TO MONITOR IT AS FAR AS THE ADVERSE REACTION CALLED

afib AND OSTEO. you simple do not get that for some people AFIB and osteo

can be life threatening. if these conditions are not adrenal related. yes,

that is correct people can still get AFIB and osteo even if their adrenals

are ok. so, all we want to do is make sure that they do not get AFIB and

osteo.

as far as Bonita and Foamex and actonel goes you are absolutely wrong. they

do IMPROVE bone density and 1000's of patients that are on them will tell

you so!! Take me for example, I take them and it has improved my bone

density!! and as far as your claim that dentist will not pull out teeth in

people who take them- that is FALSE!! have had to have multiple teeth

pulled because my bile reflux and have had multiple implants done and that

has NEVER been an issue. in fact all the oral surgeons have been happy that

I am addressing my osteo.

I think my dentist, who is also a Chinese MD, will have a good laugh with

that and so will the staff at UCLA school of dentistry and my

rheumatologist Bevra Hahn who is chief of rheum at UCLA and is the foremost

expert on sle and osteo in the world.

Now, if you take these meds and not have osteo- then that is just plain

crazy because if will add bone where they don't need it. that MD should

have his/her license nailed. NO one I know gives this class of medication

without having a diagnosis of either osteopenia or osteoporosis. that is

just plain malpractice.

Excuse me sam- but I have never said that the dose you take is wrong for

you- what ever works for you, great. BUT that DOES NOT mean that it WILL

work for everyone. I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND THUS

EVERYONE'S DOSE MAY BE DIFFERENT. especially with thyroid and iodine.

I HAVE ALSO NEVER STATED THAT YOU ARE HYPER OR HYPO T. ALL I AM SAYING IS

THAT TOO LOW OF A TSH CAN HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE AFIB AND OSTEO. THAT

IS A FACT That 100's of medical providers will also state regardless of

whether they practice allopathic or natural medicine.. It is just a

Scientific FACT.

I am fully aware that you have no thyroid gland and that you need a higher

dose of armour than people who still have a thyroid and I am fully aware

that you need higher doses of iodine that someone else. All I am asking is

that you accept that these side effects do happen and for some people it

would be malpractice for medical providers not to be concerned for the

patient. I am also fully aware that when you find the right dose of armour

or other thyroid medication- the issue of AFIB and Osteo can go away.

nancie

.

[Guest guest]

LOL

Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

IMO you do not know enough about how to use Armour and other hormones.

Gracia

and I agree with that- my only concern is for the patients who have just

started armour and have NOT reached their optimal dose! they are the ones

at the most risk or the ones with unique genetics that may not improve on

armour and we providers would be practicing MALPRACTICE if we did not worry

about that.

nancie

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[Guest guest]

Okay, I did look at it and there are lots of things

that you can buy. I read some testimonials, on PMS,

etc. and still don't think that iodine cures hashi's.

Peace,

--- Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

>

> you might want to look at

> http://www.drbrownstein.com

> Gracia

>

> Gracia that isn't even close to being funny and

> cute.

> And if you're being serious ... I don't even know

> what

> to say.

>

> Peace,

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Well are there any instances in which a tsh <0.5 is okay? I thought it was

<0.1.

cw

-- Re: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

yes, that is a fact sam. low TSH<0.5 can cause osteoporosis because a low

TSH indicates a hyperthyroid condition in your body and hyperthyroidism

causes osteo.

per ted friedman and prudence hall who are MD's who use armour and other

natural thyroid hormones in their practices: " taking T3 disrupts the way

your body naturally controls and regulates TSH levels. And if you take T3,

you will drop your TSH to low levels <0.5 and you will experience low T4

levels and when you have low T4 levels you will get low TSH levels. In

addition, taking too much T3 can stress your heart, Taking any thyroid

hormone replacement can also put you into a state of hyperthyroidism which

can cause heart problems and osteoporosis " .

But as my other post stated so does many other Diseases and conditions.

Which includes HYPO T.

some of the causes of osteoporosis:

1. hypo T

2. too much thyroid replacement medication whether it is natural or

synthetic

3. HYperthyrodism

4. Menopause

5. Genetics

6. Cancer

7. Chemo drugs.

8. premature ovarian failure.

9. parathyroid organ problems.

Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Low TSH causes osteoporosis, eh? Let's see, I had bone severe loss

from synthroid and from being severely hypOthyroid, and my TSH was no

where near supressed. On Armour, dosed by symptoms, and with such a

little TSH that it would probably scare Chuck and to pieces, I

have excellent bone density - aka bones of steel...at least according

to the bone density testing I have had. Yea, and according to all the

wild fun I have, too.

Sam

---

...

[Guest guest]

at <05 that is the start of the caution zone. once you get to <0.1 then there

COULD be a risk for the AFIB and OSTEO if your genetics and health status deems

it to be. Given, that most people are armour do great at their optimal dose, it

should not be a problem.

if your hypo T status has responded to the armour or other non-T4 med and you

feel fine and are taking vits and minerals and extra calcium and vit D or at

least eating really health and you monitor yourself with a dexa scan once a year

[ because that is the only way to check for osteo] for the osteo [ factoring

that you aren't menopause or are taking some type of HRT}; 2. that you aren't

having any cardiac symptoms and are taking cardio-protective supplements then

you will be okay.

like I have said those people who are still figuring out their optimal dose are

Potentially at the most risk and I worry about them. I don't apologize for

caring and worrying for them like they were my family and not wanting any harm

to come to them. that is why I am uneasy about a TSH of <0.5

nancie

Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Low TSH causes osteoporosis, eh? Let's see, I had bone severe loss

from synthroid and from being severely hypOthyroid, and my TSH was no

where near supressed. On Armour, dosed by symptoms, and with such a

little TSH that it would probably scare Chuck and to pieces, I

have excellent bone density - aka bones of steel...at least according

to the bone density testing I have had. Yea, and according to all the

wild fun I have, too.

Sam

---

..

[Guest guest]

Thanks for this feedback Venizia. Did you mean that the multi vitamin had iron

in it or iodine? I do take a multi with iron in it as well.

I am so glad that you found a good doc!! horray!! That is great news, and

thanks for sharing with us.

That's funny, I do seem to have low blood pressure, but I don't think it is

in the 90's.

I am really feeling so much better...but am still struggling with the weight

and sore breasts issue. I hope to get resolution on these two things...

Blessings and hugs,

venizia1948 <nelsonck@...> wrote:

Hi ,

Just met with my new doctor today. I brought up the fact that this is

a big discussion on our list. He said iodine is definately not good

for those with hashi's. He is one that treats with Armour and looks

at FT3 & Ft4 and also TSH. He brought up a patient with Hashi's that

was taking a multiple vitamin that had iron. She couldn't figure out

why she felt so bad until she brought up that fact that she was taking

a vitamin to him.

Wasn't there someone on the list that has hashi's and tried iodine and

said they didn't do well on it. I am going back into the posts and

see if I can find that. Or if you are that person maybe you could

elaborate for us.

By the way, I am very happy with my new doctor today. He is

definitely up on what works for us. He treats naturally (I know some

of you do not feel there is anything natural about Armour) Anyway, he

took is time with me. Is doing my Ft3 and 4 and Ferritin. As for

adrenals he said that if I had an adrenal problem, my BP would be low

like in the 90's and it was 126/65 so.....I may still bring it up

again depending on what he finds out from the blood tests. Once they

are in we will discuss things further.

Venizia

> I must say, I have been reading that hashi's is helpful in

autoimmune and then read that it is not. It is so confusing...why is

it so confusing? We hear it is bad, then we hear it is good. What is

the truth? To Gracia's and Sam's defense, they can only share what

their conscience says to share. And to others who don't support their

side, they can only share what they think to be right. I think we all

care, we just need to find the truth.

>

> Where do we start?

> Blessings,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Whew! thats an off the wall statement!

Never heard of that one before.

U are silly Sam. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have little to 0 faith

in any of your comments because they are all so contradictory.

Dusty

P.S. My father was hypo all his life, treated with Synthroid and never

lost a tooth in his head. Beautiful strong straight white teeth till the

day he died. Some of us keep 'em and some of us don't. Maybe you needed

that estrogen earlier than you got it!

Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Eh?

I lost all but 10 of my teeth to hypOthyroidism. But, UH-Oh, I lost a

tooth out of my upper partial denture. Oh No, maybe it's because my

TSH is too low. hahaha

Dusty, I dosed by symptoms, like real doctors used to do.

>

> You also are using bio identical sex hormones, which have made your

bones

> and teeth twice as strong as they used to be. No secret about

their

> ability to do that. Funny you don't mention it here.

>

> Here it comes again, that misrepresentation of the wonders of ONLY

YOUR

> drugs with perfect numbers according to where YOU DESIRE those

numbers to be

> and not any medical standard.

>

> Dusty

[Guest guest]

Sam,

You wrote:

> ... Bone loss can be a

> side effect of T4 according to the package inserts.

That is because every single hypoT and hyperT symptom must be listed,

since it is possible for the dosage to be off either way.

For example, here is a list of common side effects we should consider:

chest pain, nervousness, trouble sleeping, tremor, rapid heartbeat,

nausea, headache, fever, sweating, shortness of breath, heat

intolerance, irregular menses, increased appetite, decreased weight,

diarrhea, and abdominal pain.

If you experience any of the following uncommon but serious side

effects, stop taking the medication and seek emergency medical attention

or contact your doctor immediately:

* an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the

throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives)

* vomiting; or

* chest pain, irregular heartbeat, or shortness of breath

Again, CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR if you experience trembling or shaking

hands, nervousness, difficulty sleeping, headache, change in appetite,

diarrhea, weight loss, increased sweating, increased sensitivity to

heat, increased heart rate, chest pain, or shortness of breath.

Other, less serious side effects may be more likely to occur. Continue

to take this medication and talk to your doctor if you experience:

* tremor, nervousness, or irritability

* headache

* insomnia

* diarrhea, changes in appetite, or weight loss

* leg cramps

* menstrual irregularities; or

* fever, sweating, or heat sensitivity

Symptoms of overstimulation may include:

Changes in appetite, diarrhea, fever, headache, increased heart

rate, irritability, nausea, nervousness, sleeplessness, sweating, weight

loss. Although treated children may initially lose some hair, the hair

loss is temporary.

Symptoms of low levels include:

Fatigue, muscle aches, constipation, dry skin, weight gain, slow

heartbeat, sensitivity to cold, or dry brittle hair that tends to fall

out easily. These symptoms should disappear as your body adjusts to the

medication. If they persist or become bothersome, inform your doctor.

Symptoms of high levels include headache, chest pain, fast or irregular

heartbeat, shortness of breath, trembling, sweating, diarrhea, weight

and bone loss. If you experience any of these effects, contact your doctor.

Note that both weight gain and weight loss are listed as possible side

effects. The catch is that these are the standard side effects listed

for ARMOUR THYROID!

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Whether it is dessicated pig livers or synthetic T4 and Cytomel, the same is

true for both,

I believe. What I don't know, are what do the other things in Armour provide,

like T2,T1, etc.

Roni

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

Sam,

You wrote:

> ... Bone loss can be a

> side effect of T4 according to the package inserts.

That is because every single hypoT and hyperT symptom must be listed,

since it is possible for the dosage to be off either way.

For example, here is a list of common side effects we should consider:

chest pain, nervousness, trouble sleeping, tremor, rapid heartbeat,

nausea, headache, fever, sweating, shortness of breath, heat

intolerance, irregular menses, increased appetite, decreased weight,

diarrhea, and abdominal pain.

If you experience any of the following uncommon but serious side

effects, stop taking the medication and seek emergency medical attention

or contact your doctor immediately:

* an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the

throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives)

* vomiting; or

* chest pain, irregular heartbeat, or shortness of breath

Again, CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR if you experience trembling or shaking

hands, nervousness, difficulty sleeping, headache, change in appetite,

diarrhea, weight loss, increased sweating, increased sensitivity to

heat, increased heart rate, chest pain, or shortness of breath.

Other, less serious side effects may be more likely to occur. Continue

to take this medication and talk to your doctor if you experience:

* tremor, nervousness, or irritability

* headache

* insomnia

* diarrhea, changes in appetite, or weight loss

* leg cramps

* menstrual irregularities; or

* fever, sweating, or heat sensitivity

Symptoms of overstimulation may include:

Changes in appetite, diarrhea, fever, headache, increased heart

rate, irritability, nausea, nervousness, sleeplessness, sweating, weight

loss. Although treated children may initially lose some hair, the hair

loss is temporary.

Symptoms of low levels include:

Fatigue, muscle aches, constipation, dry skin, weight gain, slow

heartbeat, sensitivity to cold, or dry brittle hair that tends to fall

out easily. These symptoms should disappear as your body adjusts to the

medication. If they persist or become bothersome, inform your doctor.

Symptoms of high levels include headache, chest pain, fast or irregular

heartbeat, shortness of breath, trembling, sweating, diarrhea, weight

and bone loss. If you experience any of these effects, contact your doctor.

Note that both weight gain and weight loss are listed as possible side

effects. The catch is that these are the standard side effects listed

for ARMOUR THYROID!

Chuck

---------------------------------

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