Re: Another newbie introduction

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike

I can never understand why a doctor would want to prescribe an the

inactive hormone T4 with Armour thyroid when you first start Armour.

This is pointless. You are probably experiencing the 'roller coaster'

because you might have low adrenal reserve. You should check this out by

getting a 24 hour salivary adrenal profile where they can tell you where

your cortisol and DHEA are at four specific times during the day. If you

do have adrenal insufficiency, it is a fact that your body will be

unable to utilise the thyroid hormone replacement (synthetic or natural)

and you need to get them boosted with adrenal supplements. I am in the

UK so cannot tell you where you get your salivary adrenal test, but

somebody should be able to help you. Another reason you have the

roller'coaster effect is if you have Candida Albicans. This gets inside

your gut and again, you cannot get the benefit from thyroid hormone

replacement that you should unless you get this treated.

There is a home test you can check to see if this could be a

possibility. When you go to bed tonight, take with you a glass of water.

When you wake, before you drink anything or clean your teeth, spit into

the top of the glass. After a while, if you see thready tendrils from

your spit going down to the bottom of the glass, or if the water becomes

cloudy, this could be an indication you have Candida Albicans. If, on

the other hand, your spit disappears, then you do not have it. Should

this test prove positive, then you may need to consider whether you need

to get this properly tested and treated.

Sheila

>

> Hi,

>

> I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

with 15 mg Armour

> and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

guess the doc

> wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

significant changes in

> my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

116/67 to

> 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

few days and

> sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

week, I start

> noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

temperature. The temp

> doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

weeks, the roller

> coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

out like a bullfrog's

> neck during mating season.

>

> Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

during the initial

> phase of treatment?

>

> Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this

out?

>

> I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh,

I forgot to mention

> that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

probably deem toxic. It

> was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

was only making

> things worse.

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Mike

>

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

Chuck

>

>

> Hi,

>

> I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> with 15 mg Armour

> and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> guess the doc

> wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> significant changes in

> my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> 116/67 to

> 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> few days and

> sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> week, I start

> noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> temperature. The temp

> doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> weeks, the roller

> coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> out like a bullfrog's

> neck during mating season.

>

> Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> during the initial

> phase of treatment?

>

> Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this out?

>

> I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh, I

> forgot to mention

> that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> probably deem toxic. It

> was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> was only making

> things worse.

>

[Guest guest]

I thought I had just heard a year or so ago that they changed the beginning

of high blood pressure...it used to be 120/80 or higher...

Yeah that's what this says

_http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=2112_

(http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=2112)

that's normal and above is considered prehypertension .

**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch " Cooking with

Tyler Florence " on AOL Food.

(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? & NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

I had a full blood panel with my regular doc. My TSH was 4.87,

still under 5 so my regular doc said it was normal. My triglycerides

were 300, but everything else was within normal parameters

except for very low iron. I was anemic. I've been supplementing

with iron for several weeks now.

I felt like crap but all my regular doc would offer was weight

loss surgery.

I went to see an endocrinologist, and she said that anything over 3

is HypoT. My symptoms were:

Very low energy

Hair thinning, only have half eyebrows.

Weight gain. I would work out 5 days a week for an hour at a time

doing cardio - calorimeter indicating 1000-1200 Kcal, daily

food consumption of 900-1200 kcal, and not losing weight.

Not having the energy to finish sentences.

Being very forgetful.

Only having 2 or 3 bowel movements a week.

Depression.

Joint pain

Muscle pain

Tendonitis

Narcolepsy

I compensated by consuming huge amounts of caffeine.

I should also mention that I am on blood pressure meds.

100 mg Toprol xl - a Beta blocker

20 mg Lisinopril

I don't know why my body temp has always been low, but it has

always been low, and I have always felt hot, until now.

Since I started treatment, I've been weening myself off of caffeine.

I am getting back to low energy. It is 2 weeks into this, and I am

supposed to increase my dose to 30 mg Armour. This morning

my blood pressure was a little high so I put it off for another day.

I don't know what all is going on with me. I expect 24 hour urine

test results back in a couple weeks. That should be informative.

All I know is that overall, I've improved since I started taking Armour.

Right now I'm about to crash again. Pushing send before I go to sleep.

>

> Mike,

>

> Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

>

> Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

>

> The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

>

> Chuck

>

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> > with 15 mg Armour

> > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > guess the doc

> > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > significant changes in

> > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> > 116/67 to

> > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> > few days and

> > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > week, I start

> > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > temperature. The temp

> > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> > weeks, the roller

> > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> > out like a bullfrog's

> > neck during mating season.

> >

> > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > during the initial

> > phase of treatment?

> >

> > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this out?

> >

> > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh, I

> > forgot to mention

> > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > probably deem toxic. It

> > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > was only making

> > things worse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

can Armour cause your blood pressue and heart rate to go up?

I have a resting heart rate of 48 and a blood pressure of 107/60 I have been

taking Armour for almost 2 weeks and I just took my BP and heart rate and it is

up quite a bit:116/71 HR:70

Is this normal?

Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...> wrote:

Chuck,

I had a full blood panel with my regular doc. My TSH was 4.87,

still under 5 so my regular doc said it was normal. My triglycerides

were 300, but everything else was within normal parameters

except for very low iron. I was anemic. I've been supplementing

with iron for several weeks now.

I felt like crap but all my regular doc would offer was weight

loss surgery.

I went to see an endocrinologist, and she said that anything over 3

is HypoT. My symptoms were:

Very low energy

Hair thinning, only have half eyebrows.

Weight gain. I would work out 5 days a week for an hour at a time

doing cardio - calorimeter indicating 1000-1200 Kcal, daily

food consumption of 900-1200 kcal, and not losing weight.

Not having the energy to finish sentences.

Being very forgetful.

Only having 2 or 3 bowel movements a week.

Depression.

Joint pain

Muscle pain

Tendonitis

Narcolepsy

I compensated by consuming huge amounts of caffeine.

I should also mention that I am on blood pressure meds.

100 mg Toprol xl - a Beta blocker

20 mg Lisinopril

I don't know why my body temp has always been low, but it has

always been low, and I have always felt hot, until now.

Since I started treatment, I've been weening myself off of caffeine.

I am getting back to low energy. It is 2 weeks into this, and I am

supposed to increase my dose to 30 mg Armour. This morning

my blood pressure was a little high so I put it off for another day.

I don't know what all is going on with me. I expect 24 hour urine

test results back in a couple weeks. That should be informative.

All I know is that overall, I've improved since I started taking Armour.

Right now I'm about to crash again. Pushing send before I go to sleep.

>

> Mike,

>

> Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

>

> Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

>

> The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

>

> Chuck

>

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> > with 15 mg Armour

> > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > guess the doc

> > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > significant changes in

> > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> > 116/67 to

> > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> > few days and

> > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > week, I start

> > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > temperature. The temp

> > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> > weeks, the roller

> > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> > out like a bullfrog's

> > neck during mating season.

> >

> > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > during the initial

> > phase of treatment?

> >

> > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this out?

> >

> > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh, I

> > forgot to mention

> > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > probably deem toxic. It

> > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > was only making

> > things worse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

be at odds with each other.

Chuck, do you think this might be the case?

I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

melatonin production. Changing lots of stuff at once...

> >

> > Mike,

> >

> > Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

> >

> > Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> > hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> > began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> > doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> > appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

> >

> > The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> > mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> > > with 15 mg Armour

> > > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > > guess the doc

> > > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > > significant changes in

> > > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> > > 116/67 to

> > > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> > > few days and

> > > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > > week, I start

> > > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > > temperature. The temp

> > > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> > > weeks, the roller

> > > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> > > out like a bullfrog's

> > > neck during mating season.

> > >

> > > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > > during the initial

> > > phase of treatment?

> > >

> > > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this

out?

> > >

> > > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh, I

> > > forgot to mention

> > > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > > probably deem toxic. It

> > > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > > was only making

> > > things worse.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you look at the beta blocker mfg insert, you will find that this drug can

cause a number of your symptoms. I am struggling right now to get off mine

(Tenormin) - as it can cause weight gain, fatigue and very slow heartbeat

(bradycardia). Bradycardia then causes its own problems as seen on this

site:

http://health./heart-overview/bradycardia-slow-heart-rate/healthwis

e--aa107571.html

Perhaps you can look into another BP med (I'm doing that now) but you must

wean off of the beta blocker.

Dusty

What are the symptoms of bradycardia?

A very slow heart rate may cause you to:

* Feel dizzy or lightheaded.

* Feel short of breath and find it harder to exercise.

* Feel tired.

* Have chest pain or a feeling that your heart is pounding or

fluttering (palpitations).

* Feel confused or have trouble concentrating.

* Faint, if a slow heart rate causes a drop in blood pressure.

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Mike Lawson

Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:48 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Another newbie introduction

In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

be at odds with each other.

Chuck, do you think this might be the case?

I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

melatonin production. Changing lots of stuff at once...

> >

> > Mike,

> >

> > Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

> >

> > Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> > hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> > began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> > doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> > appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

> >

> > The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> > mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

> > > with 15 mg Armour

> > > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > > guess the doc

> > > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > > significant changes in

> > > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

> > > 116/67 to

> > > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

> > > few days and

> > > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > > week, I start

> > > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > > temperature. The temp

> > > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

> > > weeks, the roller

> > > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

> > > out like a bullfrog's

> > > neck during mating season.

> > >

> > > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > > during the initial

> > > phase of treatment?

> > >

> > > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this

out?

> > >

> > > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh,

I

> > > forgot to mention

> > > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > > probably deem toxic. It

> > > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > > was only making

> > > things worse.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dusty,

What blood pressure meds are you looking at? I would like to go to the doc

armed with information.

The body temp thing might have been a total fluke. I've had sore glands in

my neck for some time now.

This is driving me nuts though. Early this morning I was up and down quite

a bit but it stabilized for most of the day. Here in the last hour or so it is

the yo yo again. The body has energy, but the mental fog is back, and forth.

Oh, before I started the thyroid treatment, my BP was 116/67 and I was on

track for lowering the dose if my BP was that low on my next visit. This

weekend I'll monitor my BP closely and see of these valleys are due to

low BP/bradycardia. If so, most of my roller coaster symptoms are due to

a conflict between BP and thyroid meds.

I hate this mental fog...

> > >

> > > Mike,

> > >

> > > Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

> > >

> > > Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> > > hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> > > began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or your

> > > doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> > > appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

> > >

> > > The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains (120

> > > mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

> > >

> > > Chuck

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to start

>

> > > > with 15 mg Armour

> > > > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > > > guess the doc

> > > > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > > > significant changes in

> > > > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP of

>

> > > > 116/67 to

> > > > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for a

>

> > > > few days and

> > > > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about a

> > > > week, I start

> > > > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > > > temperature. The temp

> > > > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At 2

>

> > > > weeks, the roller

> > > > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being stretched

>

> > > > out like a bullfrog's

> > > > neck during mating season.

> > > >

> > > > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > > > during the initial

> > > > phase of treatment?

> > > >

> > > > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth this

> out?

> > > >

> > > > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine. Oh,

> I

> > > > forgot to mention

> > > > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > > > probably deem toxic. It

> > > > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that I

> > > > was only making

> > > > things worse.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Thanks for those details. It makes our speculations a little more concrete.

You wrote:

>

> I went to see an endocrinologist, and she said that anything over 3

> is HypoT...

Good endo. A keeper.

> I don't know why my body temp has always been low, but it has

> always been low, and I have always felt hot, until now.

That's typical of hypoT.

> ... It is 2 weeks into this, and I am

> supposed to increase my dose to 30 mg Armour. ...

> All I know is that overall, I've improved since I started taking Armour.

Not surprising, but you will feel much better when your dose is adjusted

to keep your TSH below 2. If you are doing it by Armour, probably WAY

below 2, more like 0.3. The longer you stay hypoT, the longer the

recovery will take.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Mike,

You wrote:

>

> In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

> I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

> pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

> seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

> be at odds with each other.

Beta blockers only treat some of the symptoms of hyperT. Since you did

not seem to have high blood pressure or hyperT, what exactly is the beta

blocker for?

Armour should not grossly increase blood pressure in conflict with a

beta blocker. What you reported was an unusually low blood pressure,

which seemed to become closer to " normal " on Armour. I would therefore

describe the thyroid medication as restoring normalcy, rather than

fighting your beta blocker.

> I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

> night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

> melatonin production.

Another excellent call by your endo. Trust him rather than me.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Just be sure you taper off the beta blocker gradually, if that is the

way you and your endo decide to go. Cold turkey can be dangerous.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

at 116/67. According to some new guideline, the systolic

is supposed to be under 115. I feel like crap when it is that

low. The heaping dose of toprol (100 mg) and lisinopril (20 mg)

brought my BP to that low state. What really torques me off

is that they chose to use the *new* guidelines for BP, but not

TSH, and have me on enough toprol to induce some hypoT

symptoms.

> >

> > In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

> > I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

> > pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

> > seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

> > be at odds with each other.

>

> Beta blockers only treat some of the symptoms of hyperT. Since you did

> not seem to have high blood pressure or hyperT, what exactly is the beta

> blocker for?

>

> Armour should not grossly increase blood pressure in conflict with a

> beta blocker. What you reported was an unusually low blood pressure,

> which seemed to become closer to " normal " on Armour. I would therefore

> describe the thyroid medication as restoring normalcy, rather than

> fighting your beta blocker.

>

> > I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

> > night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

> > melatonin production.

>

> Another excellent call by your endo. Trust him rather than me.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Mike,

What new guideline is that? Every record I can find says that " high "

pressure begins at 140/90 for adults. Are you a pre-teen?

Chuck

You wrote:

>

>

> My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

> at 116/67. According to some new guideline, the systolic

> is supposed to be under 115. I feel like crap when it is that

> low. The heaping dose of toprol (100 mg) and lisinopril (20 mg)

> brought my BP to that low state. What really torques me off

> is that they chose to use the *new* guidelines for BP, but not

> TSH, and have me on enough toprol to induce some hypoT

> symptoms.

>

>

> > >

> > > In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

> > > I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

> > > pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

> > > seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

> > > be at odds with each other.

> >

> > Beta blockers only treat some of the symptoms of hyperT. Since you did

> > not seem to have high blood pressure or hyperT, what exactly is the beta

> > blocker for?

> >

> > Armour should not grossly increase blood pressure in conflict with a

> > beta blocker. What you reported was an unusually low blood pressure,

> > which seemed to become closer to " normal " on Armour. I would therefore

> > describe the thyroid medication as restoring normalcy, rather than

> > fighting your beta blocker.

> >

> > > I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

> > > night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

> > > melatonin production.

> >

> > Another excellent call by your endo. Trust him rather than me.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1486 - Release Date: 6/5/2008 6:29

PM

[Guest guest]

Good point, I took him at is word. I should never take the word of an HMO doctor

at face

value. I have to pay for the Armour out of my own pocket because my TSH isn't

over 5 and

my endo is out of network.

Anyway, here is what I found.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=23356

It states that a systolic of 120-139 is " pre-hypertensive "

I think he might have been misusing this statement.

" The risk of cardiovascular disease, beginning at 115/75 mm Hg, doubles with

each

increment of 20/10 mm Hg. "

All of the stated goals for BP treatment indicated that the goal is to keep it

below 130. Sign

me up. I'll bring that in when I ask for a non-beta blocker. Actually, since I

am on 2 meds,

I might be able to slowly ween myself off of the toprol.

I'll be adding the additional Armour in very soon. If the BP is 130'ish in the

morning, I'll do

it tomorrow.

Thanks Chuck.

> > > >

> > > > In my case, things might be a little more whacky because

> > > > I am taking a heavy dose of a beta blocker for my blood

> > > > pressure. They prescribe beta blockers for HyperT. It

> > > > seems like Armour and my blood pressure med might

> > > > be at odds with each other.

> > >

> > > Beta blockers only treat some of the symptoms of hyperT. Since you did

> > > not seem to have high blood pressure or hyperT, what exactly is the beta

> > > blocker for?

> > >

> > > Armour should not grossly increase blood pressure in conflict with a

> > > beta blocker. What you reported was an unusually low blood pressure,

> > > which seemed to become closer to " normal " on Armour. I would therefore

> > > describe the thyroid medication as restoring normalcy, rather than

> > > fighting your beta blocker.

> > >

> > > > I also switched from taking the blood pressure stuff at

> > > > night because the endocrinologist said that it inhibits

> > > > melatonin production.

> > >

> > > Another excellent call by your endo. Trust him rather than me.

> > >

> > > Chuck

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1486 - Release Date: 6/5/2008

6:29 PM

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, that's what I'm finding out. I'm liking my regular doctor less and less.

> >

> > can Armour cause your blood pressue and heart rate to go up?

> >

> > I have a resting heart rate of 48 and a blood pressure of 107/60 I have

> > been taking Armour for almost 2 weeks and I just took my BP and heart

> > rate and it is up quite a bit:116/71 HR:70

> >

> > Is this normal?

>

> Yes, and yes.

>

> Chuck

>

> P.S. to Mike et al., a blood panel really isn't " full " if it omits FT3.

>

[Guest guest]

the right dose of Armour will lower BP. you will have a hard time getting the

right dose.

Gracia

Mike,

Thanks for those details. It makes our speculations a little more concrete.

You wrote:

>

> I went to see an endocrinologist, and she said that anything over 3

> is HypoT...

Good endo. A keeper.

> I don't know why my body temp has always been low, but it has

> always been low, and I have always felt hot, until now.

That's typical of hypoT.

> ... It is 2 weeks into this, and I am

> supposed to increase my dose to 30 mg Armour. ...

> All I know is that overall, I've improved since I started taking Armour.

Not surprising, but you will feel much better when your dose is adjusted

to keep your TSH below 2. If you are doing it by Armour, probably WAY

below 2, more like 0.3. The longer you stay hypoT, the longer the

recovery will take.

Chuck

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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PM

[Guest guest]

Hi Chuck

The usual starting doses recommended by several doctors who treat all

the time using Armour is 15mgs (quarter grain) for those who have a

heart problem, and 30 of 60mgs for those who do not. For those who have

been taking levothyroxine only and it has not worked for them (usually

because they cannot convert it to the active hormone T3), they need to

take some caution with Armour (or T3) when they first start using it

because of the 'active' hormones, T3, T2, T1. Sudden and 'unexpected'

peaks in the blood with T3 (usually after a couple of hours after

ingesting it) can be frightening, causing palpitations, sweating,

dizziness and generally spaced out - though this doesn't happen to

everybody, and when it does happen, is usually when taking a much higher

dose, and is an indication you have reached the dose of thyroid hormone

replacement your body needs. It is best to increase either Armour or

synthetic T3 slowly, and to split both into taking twice a day because

of the short half life of T3 (around 6 to 8 hours). Take half before

breakfast and half around 2.00 to 3.00p.m. to keep you from the sudden

slump you might feel when the T3 leaves your body.

It is usually recommended to increase by half a grain (30mgs) every 3 to

4 weeks until you find the dose that keeps you well.

Sheila

> Mike,

>

> Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

>

> Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or

your

> doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

>

> The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains

(120

> mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

>

> Chuck

>

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

HI Mike

You are probably still experiencing all these symptoms because you are

nowhere near to taking the right dose of Armour that your body needs.

You must be patient and let your body get used to these new hormones

they have been without for some time.

Do you know whether you have a high cholesterol level? If you want to go

down the natural route to bringing your pressure down, try high doses of

CoEnzymeQ10 n(say 300 mgs) and also the non-flushing Niacin (vitamin

B3) at 350mgs. My husband had very high BP and refused to use the

synthetic meds. our doctor recommended and has brought it right down

using these.

Get your doctor to check out your sore glands. Infections last a long

time when your metabolism is low. I am sure once you get on the correct

dose of Armour you will feel so much better. However, having said that,

remember there are many associated conditions that go along with

hypothyroidism that you may need to treat before you get the full

benefit of Armour. OLnce on the right dose, your brain fog will go. I

know, my brain was the first thing to come back to me when I started

Armour.

Your BP is not high. Low BP is to be expected in somebody with

hypothyroidism. I would suggest you try to find out whether your

adrenals are compromised and if your cortisol is low, get some

supplementation. If you start adrenal supplementation, then take your

BP, temperature and pulse daily to see if this is making a difference.

Sheila

>

> What blood pressure meds are you looking at? I would like to go to the

doc

> armed with information.

>

> The body temp thing might have been a total fluke. I've had sore

glands in

> my neck for some time now.

>

> This is driving me nuts though. Early this morning I was up and down

quite

> a bit but it stabilized for most of the day. Here in the last hour or

so it is

> the yo yo again. The body has energy, but the mental fog is back, and

forth.

>

> Oh, before I started the thyroid treatment, my BP was 116/67 and I was

on

> track for lowering the dose if my BP was that low on my next visit.

This

> weekend I'll monitor my BP closely and see of these valleys are due to

> low BP/bradycardia. If so, most of my roller coaster symptoms are due

to

> a conflict between BP and thyroid meds.

>

> I hate this mental fog...

>

> >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/5/2008 9:04:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

mlawson66@... writes:

>My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

>at 116/67.

I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

Just my $.02.

BarbF

**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch " Cooking with

Tyler Florence " on AOL Food.

(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? & NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

[Guest guest]

Thanks Barb!

> >My regular doctor thinks that my blood pressure is still high

> >at 116/67.

>

> I would seriously question that...sounds very healthy to me. Perhaps the

> drug companies are encouraging lower and lower blood pressure to increase

> sales...similar to lower and lower cholesterol to push statins.

> And, as you say, you don't feel well when it's lower. Listen to your body.

> Just my $.02.

> BarbF

[Guest guest]

tyblossom@... wrote:

>

>

> I thought I had just heard a year or so ago that they changed the beginning

> of high blood pressure...it used to be 120/80 or higher...

The change was in 2003. However, hypertension is still 140/90 or higher.

What the new guideline changed was to create a new category,

" prehypertension, " which is what your site quoted as starting at 120/80.

However, prehypertension is NOT treated with drugs. They screen for it

to recommend changes in diet and exercise. In this case the beta blocker

seemed to be prescribed for hypertension that had not been reached, yet.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

> You are probably still experiencing all these symptoms because you are

> nowhere near to taking the right dose of Armour that your body needs.

> You must be patient and let your body get used to these new hormones

> they have been without for some time.

I hate to wait! ;-) Really, I don't mind. After having a couple episodes

of being *wired*, I can certainly wait. I'm beginning to suspect interactions

with the BP meds, but I am sure that the adrenals are whacked too.

> Do you know whether you have a high cholesterol level?

My total cholesterol is 147 with HDL 21/LDL 66 but I have high triglycerides

(300) from the beta blocker blood pressure meds.

> If you want to go

> down the natural route to bringing your pressure down, try high doses of

> CoEnzymeQ10 n(say 300 mgs) and also the non-flushing Niacin (vitamin

> B3) at 350mgs. My husband had very high BP and refused to use the

> synthetic meds. our doctor recommended and has brought it right down

> using these.

I will certainly try Q10. I am taking a supplement with lots of Niacin, but

it makes me turn red and feel funny. Is there some other form of Niacin

that doesn't cause this reaction?

> Get your doctor to check out your sore glands. Infections last a long

> time when your metabolism is low.

This has been going on for over a year. They put me on antibiotics

for a couple weeks when it first happened. I almost hate to go back.

> OLnce on the right dose, your brain fog will go. I

> know, my brain was the first thing to come back to me when I started

> Armour.

I can't wait!

> Your BP is not high. Low BP is to be expected in somebody with

> hypothyroidism. I would suggest you try to find out whether your

> adrenals are compromised and if your cortisol is low, get some

> supplementation. If you start adrenal supplementation, then take your

> BP, temperature and pulse daily to see if this is making a difference.

Adrenal supplements? Is there a vitamin supplementation regimen for

adrenal support? I expect the results back for the adrenal tests in a

couple weeks. I'll probably start a treatment program for that soon

too.

Thanks Sheila!

Have a great day! -Mike

[Guest guest]

Shiela,

You wrote:

>

> The usual starting doses recommended by several doctors who treat all

> the time using Armour is 15mgs (quarter grain) for those who have a

> heart problem, and 30 of 60mgs for those who do not....

That is consistent with the recommendations of the manufacturer, Forest

Pharmaceuticals:

http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf

However, Mike did not mention that he had a cardiac condition, and a

very recent dosing recommendation (Gursoy A, et. al. " Which

thyroid-stimulating hormone level should be sought in hypothyroid

patients under L-thyroxine replacement therapy? " Int J Clin Pract. 2006

Jun;60(6):655-9) said that it is safe for patients without cardiac

involvement to go directly to a full replacement dose and adjust from

there, rather than follow the gradual titration approach.

Forest also says that the maximum dose is 3 grains (180 mg). However,

many on this list take more than that, up to 6 grains, IIRC. Forest also

says that a full replacement dose (depending on weight) should be in the

neighborhood of 120 mg (2 grains), which is why I previously told

Janelle that her dose of 60 mg seemed low.

> ... For those who have

> been taking levothyroxine only and it has not worked for them (usually

> because they cannot convert it to the active hormone T3), they need to

> take some caution with Armour (or T3) when they first start using it

> because of the 'active' hormones, T3, T2, T1.

Again, T2 and T1 are not active. I would agree with the need for caution

in this case, but it is because the old T4 dose stays in the system for

a long time, with a half life of about a week. Switching from T4 only to

a T3 mix would be a condition for which very gradual increases would

make sense, especially if the T4 dose had been extra high attempting to

make it work. However, Mike did not indicate he was doing that, either.

> ... It is best to increase either Armour or

> synthetic T3 slowly, and to split both into taking twice a day because

> of the short half life of T3 (around 6 to 8 hours)...

I agree with the split dose, but the half life of T3 is 24 hours, not 6-8.

> It is usually recommended to increase by half a grain (30mgs) every 3 to

> 4 weeks until you find the dose that keeps you well.

The manufacturer says every 2-3 weeks but in increments of 15 mg. Where

are you getting your " usual " recommendations? Doctors who ignore

manufacturers' recommendations risk lawsuits.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> H Int J Clin Pract. 2006

> Jun;60(6):655-9) said that it is safe for patients without cardiac

> involvement to go directly to a full replacement dose and adjust from

> there, rather than follow the gradual titration approach.

>

>This statement Really surprises me because last year when my knew

doctor started me out on 6grains everyone or most here said that my

doctor was being irresponsible by doing so. What changed in the last

year.

Venizia

[Guest guest]

I tried Avapro (6 week trial), but could not get over the low BP symptoms,

dizziness, faintness when standing and an annoying cough. Doc then wanted

to issue a fluid pill script which I refused. Now we're talking about

Altace. I believe I am going to try it.

I take the Tenormin for BP AND for heart arrhythmias (heart awareness - not

really a danger to me)- so if I can learn to deal on the heart awareness

issue (mostly happens at night when I'm sitting around watching TV - being

still) - my goal is to get off the blocker completely.

I have weaned from 100 mg Tenormin to 75 and my BP is not what it should be

144/90 - but that's temporary till we try another BP med.

Dusty

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Mike Lawson

Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 7:24 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Another newbie introduction

Dusty,

What blood pressure meds are you looking at? I would like to go to the doc

armed with information.

The body temp thing might have been a total fluke. I've had sore glands in

my neck for some time now.

This is driving me nuts though. Early this morning I was up and down quite

a bit but it stabilized for most of the day. Here in the last hour or so it

is

the yo yo again. The body has energy, but the mental fog is back, and forth.

Oh, before I started the thyroid treatment, my BP was 116/67 and I was on

track for lowering the dose if my BP was that low on my next visit. This

weekend I'll monitor my BP closely and see of these valleys are due to

low BP/bradycardia. If so, most of my roller coaster symptoms are due to

a conflict between BP and thyroid meds.

I hate this mental fog...

> > >

> > > Mike,

> > >

> > > Sorry, this makes no sense to me. NONE.

> > >

> > > Your doses (even combined) are way too low for someone who really has

> > > hypoT. Did you take any blood tests, before this chemistry experiment

> > > began? If so, please share the results. If not, what makes you (or

your

> > > doctor) think that you are hypoT and that thyroid meds are in any way

> > > appropriate? A body temperature of 98.1 is not consistent with hypoT.

> > >

> > > The usual STARTING dose for titration is closer to two full grains

(120

> > > mg) of Armour or 75 mcg of T4.

> > >

> > > Chuck

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > I'm 2 weeks into treatment for hypothyroidism. I was supposed to

start

>

> > > > with 15 mg Armour

> > > > and 25 mcg Levothyroxin, then increase to 30 mg Armour at 2 weeks. I

> > > > guess the doc

> > > > wanted a different t3/t4 ratio for me. By the second day there were

> > > > significant changes in

> > > > my metabolism. I went from a baseline body temp of 98.1 to 99.5, BP

of

>

> > > > 116/67 to

> > > > 145/105 and pulse of less than 60 to 85-88. I dropped the Armour for

a

>

> > > > few days and

> > > > sunk back down to zombiedom. I switched to Armour only. After about

a

> > > > week, I start

> > > > noticing that I'm on a roller coaster in terms of energy, mood and

> > > > temperature. The temp

> > > > doesn't actually change, I just go from feeling hot to shivering. At

2

>

> > > > weeks, the roller

> > > > coaster is getting worse, and my neck feels like it is being

stretched

>

> > > > out like a bullfrog's

> > > > neck during mating season.

> > > >

> > > > Do many people experience this roller coaster effect and a sore neck

> > > > during the initial

> > > > phase of treatment?

> > > >

> > > > Are there any foods or supplements that I can take to help smooth

this

> out?

> > > >

> > > > I am working on reducing and eventually eliminating the caffeine.

Oh,

> I

> > > > forgot to mention

> > > > that before this, I consumed caffeine at levels that the AMA would

> > > > probably deem toxic. It

> > > > was the only way I could keep awake all day. Little did I know that

I

> > > > was only making

> > > > things worse.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >