Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

[Guest guest]

The C-14 carbon article is something I posted not . I was a ware it was

just

a part of the picture, but there is no way that life as we know it is only

6,000 years

old.

I believe that is all part of the creationism theory, which brought evolution

theory to

court, and lost.

Roni

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Freedom to think whatever we want, that is the true definition of free will.

Perfect Love offers the right to say yes or no. Like I said before, good old

fashioned faith. I respect your belief, but I don't believe it myself.

Blessings.

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

The C-14 carbon article is something I posted not . I was a

ware it was just

a part of the picture, but there is no way that life as we know it is only 6,000

years

old.

I believe that is all part of the creationism theory, which brought evolution

theory to

court, and lost.

Roni

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue with

the Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on this earth in 6

days, are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of choice. Please don't

misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in anyway (even though you are a

zommie), but I have my convictions, and others have theirs. And, I am not

shoving this down anyone's throat either. But, when people say things that

CANNOT be proven and say it is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It

comes down to one thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the

coin.

Love you still,

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into the

Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected the

truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books too,

and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the TORAH that

says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen, the exodus

did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses hoofs and bones,

and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea. If you want me to

send you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this is truth. Earth may

be older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old. Guess you can call it " old

fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

The fossils of the oldest modern human skulls found

to date are 160,000 years old. These are homo sapiens

skulls, a little larger than ours but the same as us.

, while there are numberless statements in the

Torah and First Testament that have truth in them, I

always remember that they were written by men many,

many years after the events described within. Also, there

were Popes and Leaders that decided they didn't like all

the things that were in these books and either had them

changed or great parts of them removed. If we were privy

to the actual writings, and not the altered ones, we would

have a better conception of what took place. Even then,

there would still be the time and the myriad of people it

took to write these books, and so there are bound to be

inaccuracies. I believe in G-d, I believe in science. I think

we don't know enough about either to have closed minds.

Roni

[Guest guest]

I think of it this way. I pray, and many of my prayers get answered, but

certainly not

in my frame of reference, or what I would like it to be. For example, when I

was a little

girl and watched my grandmother brushing her beautiful hair I prayed to have

wavey

hair like hers. Well, now that I am much older than she was when this

happened, I

suddenly, recently developed the wavy hair too.

So, if it could take all this time for G-d to accomplish this simple thing, it

must have

taken a whole lot longer than six days for the earth to be created. Men wrote

the

Torah, and most people were not educated at the time, and it could be that

they wrote

things in the context that they felt would be understood by the people. To

write that

it took six millenia to accomplish the task would have not meant anything to

them.

Also, six days with a day of rest is a very workable and livable arrangement,

even

at those times. Huge masses of people needed to be ruled and controlled,

without

using soldiers to do the job, and religion was the easiest way. Don't forget,

we are

talking about how things were then, not now.

I agree that we all are entitled to believe the way we believe, and I don't

want to

shove anything down anyone's throat. I just thought that I could express a

different

perspective.

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Chuck,

You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue with the

Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on this earth in 6 days,

are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of choice. Please don't

misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in anyway (even though you are a

zommie), but I have my convictions, and others have theirs. And, I am not

shoving this down anyone's throat either. But, when people say things that

CANNOT be proven and say it is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It

comes down to one thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the

coin.

Love you still,

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

O.K. I certainly respect your belief, and believe in the same G-d myself.

However,

if life on this planet is only 6,000 years old, how do you account for the

fossils that

have been found to date, going back over 100,000 years? Another thing, the

Jews appeared about 6000 years or so ago as a functioning society, (5768 on

Hebrew Calendar) but there were other civilizations operating before them, so if

you just count the amount of years civilizations (let alone life itself) have

been functioning on the earth you surpass the 6,000 year mark with no problem.

You may not believe in molecular dating, but how do you get past plain old

counting?

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into the

Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected the

truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books too,

and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the TORAH that

says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen, the exodus

did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses hoofs and bones,

and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea. If you want me to send

you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this is truth. Earth may be

older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old. Guess you can call it " old

fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

The fossils of the oldest modern human skulls found

to date are 160,000 years old. These are homo sapiens

skulls, a little larger than ours but the same as us.

, while there are numberless statements in the

Torah and First Testament that have truth in them, I

always remember that they were written by men many,

many years after the events described within. Also, there

were Popes and Leaders that decided they didn't like all

the things that were in these books and either had them

changed or great parts of them removed. If we were privy

to the actual writings, and not the altered ones, we would

have a better conception of what took place. Even then,

there would still be the time and the myriad of people it

took to write these books, and so there are bound to be

inaccuracies. I believe in G-d, I believe in science. I think

we don't know enough about either to have closed minds.

Roni

[Guest guest]

Hi Roni,

I know what you are saying about prayer, and I agree, we don't truly

understand time from that aspect. It is really a good point. Funny thing is, A

lot of my prayers are answered in the same way. No doubt in my mind, I know

there is a creator and a creation. I can see it all around me. And I know we

don't disagree on this.

But, again, I have to disagree about the minds of the people, and how

brilliant they really were. Of course, this is from a creationist standpoint.

I believed they lived a long time, before the flood came and even after the

flood for that matter. And they increased in knowlege, take a look at ancient

egypt? There was electricity, flushing toilets, and of course, who would argue

with the pyramids? Some sort of lever and pully system built those. They were

mathmatical geniuses. http://www.beforeus.com/

I think of you all as my family. And I think it's great that we can have

discussions about our beliefs. I have nothing but respect and love for you all.

And I am grateful to have you in my life. You are my penpals.

Blessings,

MIchelle

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

I think of it this way. I pray, and many of my prayers get answered,

but certainly not

in my frame of reference, or what I would like it to be. For example, when I was

a little

girl and watched my grandmother brushing her beautiful hair I prayed to have

wavey

hair like hers. Well, now that I am much older than she was when this happened,

I

suddenly, recently developed the wavy hair too.

So, if it could take all this time for G-d to accomplish this simple thing, it

must have

taken a whole lot longer than six days for the earth to be created. Men wrote

the

Torah, and most people were not educated at the time, and it could be that they

wrote

things in the context that they felt would be understood by the people. To write

that

it took six millenia to accomplish the task would have not meant anything to

them.

Also, six days with a day of rest is a very workable and livable arrangement,

even

at those times. Huge masses of people needed to be ruled and controlled, without

using soldiers to do the job, and religion was the easiest way. Don't forget, we

are

talking about how things were then, not now.

I agree that we all are entitled to believe the way we believe, and I don't want

to

shove anything down anyone's throat. I just thought that I could express a

different

perspective.

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Chuck,

You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue with the

Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on this earth in 6 days,

are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of choice. Please don't

misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in anyway (even though you are a

zommie), but I have my convictions, and others have theirs. And, I am not

shoving this down anyone's throat either. But, when people say things that

CANNOT be proven and say it is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It

comes down to one thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the

coin.

Love you still,

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

I would love to discuss this further with you , but I fear we are doing

this

on the wrong site. It's not fair to the others. Would you be o.k. with me

contacting

you directly? I have a couple of points I want to make, not about G-d, about

people.

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Hi Roni,

I know what you are saying about prayer, and I agree, we don't truly understand

time from that aspect. It is really a good point. Funny thing is, A lot of my

prayers are answered in the same way. No doubt in my mind, I know there is a

creator and a creation. I can see it all around me. And I know we don't disagree

on this.

But, again, I have to disagree about the minds of the people, and how brilliant

they really were. Of course, this is from a creationist standpoint. I believed

they lived a long time, before the flood came and even after the flood for that

matter. And they increased in knowlege, take a look at ancient egypt? There was

electricity, flushing toilets, and of course, who would argue with the pyramids?

Some sort of lever and pully system built those. They were mathmatical geniuses.

http://www.beforeus.com/

I think of you all as my family. And I think it's great that we can have

discussions about our beliefs. I have nothing but respect and love for you all.

And I am grateful to have you in my life. You are my penpals.

Blessings,

MIchelle

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

I think of it this way. I pray, and many of my prayers get answered, but

certainly not

in my frame of reference, or what I would like it to be. For example, when I was

a little

girl and watched my grandmother brushing her beautiful hair I prayed to have

wavey

hair like hers. Well, now that I am much older than she was when this happened,

I

suddenly, recently developed the wavy hair too.

So, if it could take all this time for G-d to accomplish this simple thing, it

must have

taken a whole lot longer than six days for the earth to be created. Men wrote

the

Torah, and most people were not educated at the time, and it could be that they

wrote

things in the context that they felt would be understood by the people. To write

that

it took six millenia to accomplish the task would have not meant anything to

them.

Also, six days with a day of rest is a very workable and livable arrangement,

even

at those times. Huge masses of people needed to be ruled and controlled, without

using soldiers to do the job, and religion was the easiest way. Don't forget, we

are

talking about how things were then, not now.

I agree that we all are entitled to believe the way we believe, and I don't want

to

shove anything down anyone's throat. I just thought that I could express a

different

perspective.

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Chuck,

You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue with the

Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on this earth in 6 days,

are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of choice. Please don't

misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in anyway (even though you are a

zommie), but I have my convictions, and others have theirs. And, I am not

shoving this down anyone's throat either. But, when people say things that

CANNOT be proven and say it is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It

comes down to one thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the

coin.

Love you still,

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Sure, most definitely, familyirwin@...

Blessings,

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

I would love to discuss this further with you , but I fear we

are doing this

on the wrong site. It's not fair to the others. Would you be o.k. with me

contacting

you directly? I have a couple of points I want to make, not about G-d, about

people.

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Hi Roni,

I know what you are saying about prayer, and I agree, we don't truly understand

time from that aspect. It is really a good point. Funny thing is, A lot of my

prayers are answered in the same way. No doubt in my mind, I know there is a

creator and a creation. I can see it all around me. And I know we don't disagree

on this.

But, again, I have to disagree about the minds of the people, and how brilliant

they really were. Of course, this is from a creationist standpoint. I believed

they lived a long time, before the flood came and even after the flood for that

matter. And they increased in knowlege, take a look at ancient egypt? There was

electricity, flushing toilets, and of course, who would argue with the pyramids?

Some sort of lever and pully system built those. They were mathmatical geniuses.

http://www.beforeus.com/

I think of you all as my family. And I think it's great that we can have

discussions about our beliefs. I have nothing but respect and love for you all.

And I am grateful to have you in my life. You are my penpals.

Blessings,

MIchelle

Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> wrote:

I think of it this way. I pray, and many of my prayers get answered, but

certainly not

in my frame of reference, or what I would like it to be. For example, when I was

a little

girl and watched my grandmother brushing her beautiful hair I prayed to have

wavey

hair like hers. Well, now that I am much older than she was when this happened,

I

suddenly, recently developed the wavy hair too.

So, if it could take all this time for G-d to accomplish this simple thing, it

must have

taken a whole lot longer than six days for the earth to be created. Men wrote

the

Torah, and most people were not educated at the time, and it could be that they

wrote

things in the context that they felt would be understood by the people. To write

that

it took six millenia to accomplish the task would have not meant anything to

them.

Also, six days with a day of rest is a very workable and livable arrangement,

even

at those times. Huge masses of people needed to be ruled and controlled, without

using soldiers to do the job, and religion was the easiest way. Don't forget, we

are

talking about how things were then, not now.

I agree that we all are entitled to believe the way we believe, and I don't want

to

shove anything down anyone's throat. I just thought that I could express a

different

perspective.

Roni

and Irwin <familyirwin@...> wrote:

Chuck,

You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue with the

Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on this earth in 6 days,

are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of choice. Please don't

misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in anyway (even though you are a

zommie), but I have my convictions, and others have theirs. And, I am not

shoving this down anyone's throat either. But, when people say things that

CANNOT be proven and say it is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It

comes down to one thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the

coin.

Love you still,

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

,

You wrote:

>

> This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the other

> side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000 years old....

Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

around 40,000 years.

I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

studied it and stake their professions on it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the

world and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c

of her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into the

Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected the

truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books too,

and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the TORAH that

says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen, the exodus

did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses hoofs and bones,

and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea. If you want me to send

you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this is truth. Earth may be

older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old. Guess you can call it " old

fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

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11:27 AM

[Guest guest]

No one is arguing with " the creator of the universe " . As a matter of

fact he [she?] has been about as difficult to contact as the list owner.

Every culture essentially creates it's own creation myth; often

incorporating elements of previous cultures. And many/most of its

members for a long time probably believe it. Once people become more

educated, whether through contact with other cultures or other means

there develops a number who no longer accept the word of the priests or

any specific " holy " book. Once a sufficient number of people learn the

methods of logical proof and thought then the literal belief in the

validity of the creation myth general transforms into a belief in the

validity of the spiritual concepts taught by that myth for most of the

population.

There will apparently always remain a small number of believers in any

myth, no matter how absurd and how well its tenants are contradicted by

knowledge, facts and common sense. One of the ironic things they will

never believe, but if such a person who devoutly believes in the literal

truth of the Koran had been born and raised in a culture with a strong

belief in the Bible then that person's devout faith would be in Christ

rather than Mohammad.

If you have a faith that depends upon the myth of a 6000 year human

history then your faith is on very shaky ground. If God wanted to use

evolution [or whatever] to create the universe I propose to let him.

You're free to choose otherwise.

>

> Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

>

<hypothyroidism/message/34054;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZXBpNTN\

lBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzQwNTQEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE5OTA3NzIzMw-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " and Irwin " familyirwin@...

>

<mailto:familyirwin@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Radionuclide%20dating%3A%20\

OFF%20TOPIC>

> fritzalseth <fritzalseth>

>

>

> Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:00 pm (PST)

>

> Chuck,

> You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue

> with the Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on

> this earth in 6 days, are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of

> choice. Please don't misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in

> anyway (even though you are a zommie), but I have my convictions, and

> others have theirs. And, I am not shoving this down anyone's throat

> either. But, when people say things that CANNOT be proven and say it

> is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It comes down to one

> thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the coin.

>

> Love you still,

>

>

> Chuck B <gumboyaya@... <mailto:gumboyaya%40cox.net>> wrote:

> ,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the

> other

> > side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> > great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000

> years old....

>

> Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

> of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

> spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

> radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

> is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

> thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

> years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

> 50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

> the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

> around 40,000 years.

>

> I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

> this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

> than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

>

> Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

> decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

> to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

> even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

> coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

> geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

> layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

> to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

>

> Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

> plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

> formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

> studied it and stake their professions on it.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

I love your creator vs. list owner analagy, and it gave me my first laugh of the

day. Laughs are always welcome. I agree with your ideas. I believe in the

precepts

of my religion, not necessarily the dramatics, which I think are inherent in

all the

religions, and were necessary to capture the attention of the people,

especially because most

of them were illiterate and uneducated.

Roni

<res075oh@...> wrote:

No one is arguing with " the creator of the universe " . As a matter of

fact he [she?] has been about as difficult to contact as the list owner.

Every culture essentially creates it's own creation myth; often

incorporating elements of previous cultures. And many/most of its

members for a long time probably believe it. Once people become more

educated, whether through contact with other cultures or other means

there develops a number who no longer accept the word of the priests or

any specific " holy " book. Once a sufficient number of people learn the

methods of logical proof and thought then the literal belief in the

validity of the creation myth general transforms into a belief in the

validity of the spiritual concepts taught by that myth for most of the

population.

There will apparently always remain a small number of believers in any

myth, no matter how absurd and how well its tenants are contradicted by

knowledge, facts and common sense. One of the ironic things they will

never believe, but if such a person who devoutly believes in the literal

truth of the Koran had been born and raised in a culture with a strong

belief in the Bible then that person's devout faith would be in Christ

rather than Mohammad.

If you have a faith that depends upon the myth of a 6000 year human

history then your faith is on very shaky ground. If God wanted to use

evolution [or whatever] to create the universe I propose to let him.

You're free to choose otherwise.

>

> Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

>

<hypothyroidism/message/34054;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZXBpNTN\

lBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzQwNTQEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE5OTA3NzIzMw-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " and Irwin " familyirwin@...

>

<mailto:familyirwin@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Radionuclide%20dating%3A%20\

OFF%20TOPIC>

> fritzalseth <fritzalseth>

>

>

> Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:00 pm (PST)

>

> Chuck,

> You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue

> with the Creator of the Universe? If He said he made everything on

> this earth in 6 days, are you going to believe him or not? Freedom of

> choice. Please don't misunderstand, I am not disrespecting you in

> anyway (even though you are a zommie), but I have my convictions, and

> others have theirs. And, I am not shoving this down anyone's throat

> either. But, when people say things that CANNOT be proven and say it

> is FACT, then, I will speak my convictions also. It comes down to one

> thing again,GOOD OLD FASHIONED FAITH, on both sides of the coin.

>

> Love you still,

>

>

> Chuck B <gumboyaya@... <mailto:gumboyaya%40cox.net>> wrote:

> ,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > This is a whole other topic, but thought I would at least show the

> other

> > side. I don't have a closed mind, quite the opposite. I have spent a

> > great deal of time, and life on this planet is only about 6,000

> years old....

>

> Believe what you will, but don't try to represent that there is any sort

> of scientific basis for your ideas, regardless how much time you have

> spent holding them. As a scientist who professionally works with

> radioactive decay, I can reliably indicate that the web page you posted

> is rife with errors. The first is that C-14 is only accurate for a few

> thousand years. It has actually been calibrated to more than 40,000

> years. With accelerator technology, this can be pushed back to more than

> 50,000 years, but the error bars (limits of uncertainty) become larger

> the further back you try to go. The practical limit for C-14 dating is

> around 40,000 years.

>

> I am currently working with materials dated to 35,000 years. Just on

> this continent, people (homo sapiens) have been reliably dated to more

> than 12,000 years ago. In Europe, it is much earlier.

>

> Dinosaurs are typically dated by potassium-argon, thorium, or uranium

> decay chain dating. Your article correctly states that C-14 is not used

> to date dinosaurs, but that is because C-14 doesn't go back that far,

> even with its range of 50,000 years. I am currently measuring uranium in

> coal that is hundreds of millions of years old. Curiously, the various

> geologic dating methods seem to agree on ages of fossils and rock

> layers. If there were some kind of error at work, you would expect them

> to disagree, since they involve very different half lives.

>

> Geologic dating unifies a number of disciplines, including paleontology,

> plate tectonics, paleoclimate studies, geochemistry, paleobotany, planet

> formation, paleo ecology, etc. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have

> studied it and stake their professions on it.

>

> Chuck

---------------------------------

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I have to agree that people can be very unkind and forget the golden rule,

which is our whole purpose for this life. Learn to love others and treat others

as we would treat ourselves. I admit, I have failed too, but my heart is in the

right place. I don't promise to be perfect, just human.

Blessings,

Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the world

and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c of

her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into the

Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected the

truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books too,

and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the TORAH that

says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen, the exodus

did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses hoofs and bones,

and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea. If you want me to send

you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this is truth. Earth may be

older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old. Guess you can call it " old

fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Recent Activity

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11:27 AM

[Guest guest]

Gracia, you might want to educate yourself as to why some

people don't write the name of G-d. I think it is perfectly

fine that you don't have a belief system, but you are right,

people who are ignorant are often unkind, some don't

even realize what they do.

Roni

Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the world

and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c of

her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into the

Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected the

truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books too,

and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the TORAH that

says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen, the exodus

did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses hoofs and bones,

and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea. If you want me to send

you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this is truth. Earth may be

older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old. Guess you can call it " old

fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Recent Activity

a.. 9New Members

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11:27 AM

[Guest guest]

Everyone has a belief system. A rejection of the predominant belief

system or of all other belief systems are in fact belief systems.

People just believe in different things...

>

> Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

>

<hypothyroidism/message/34088;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDQzNjQ\

zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzQwODgEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE5OTE0NzE3NA-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

>

<mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Radionuclide%20dating%3A%20OFF%\

20TOPIC>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

>

> Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:36 pm (PST)

>

> Gracia, you might want to educate yourself as to why some

> people don't write the name of G-d. I think it is perfectly

> fine that you don't have a belief system, but you are right,

> people who are ignorant are often unkind, some don't

> even realize what they do.

>

> Roni

>

> Gracia <circe@... <mailto:circe%40gwi.net>> wrote:

>

> I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at

> the world and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

> I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and

> unkind b/c of her beliefs.

> Gracia

> and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog

> spelled backwords)

[Guest guest]

I like this post.

thanks

gracia

,

You wrote:

>

> You know I love you and respect your genius mind, but how do you argue

> with the Creator of the Universe?...

I certainly don't, but I think the reality He created is best

interpreted by science and not by rigid adherence to literalism. I

highly value the scriptures for their moral and spiritual lessons, and

for showing various ways to relate to Deity. However, I do not think the

Bible is a science text, nor was it ever intended to be so. Those

scriptures were written, selected, edited, amended, and translated by

people. The faith they engender should inform our view of reality, not

maintain a stranglehold on it.

Asserting that the nature of His creation is limited by the words in

Genesis is an affront to Him.

Some of the " history " the Bible contains may be more reliable than the

" science. " The pendulum is returning, at least a little, against the

" minimalist " school of archaeologists. They think that the books of

Kings and Chronicles (and everything earlier) are purely myth, because

there are too many discrepancies between the Biblical accounts and

archaeological evidence.

Best,

Chuck

P.S. I had the role of lector yesterday, with readings from Isaiah and

Galatians.

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3:32 PM

[Guest guest]

,

I'd say that is an absolutely wonderful New Years Resolution.

Venizia

-- In hypothyroidism , and Irwin

<familyirwin@...> wrote:

>

> Yes, I have to agree that people can be very unkind and forget the

golden rule, which is our whole purpose for this life. Learn to love

others and treat others as we would treat ourselves. I admit, I have

failed too, but my heart is in the right place. I don't promise to be

perfect, just human.

>

> Blessings,

>

> Recent Activity

> a.. 9New Members

> Visit Your Group

> Cancer Support

> Groups on

>

> Find answers,

>

> connect with others.

>

> Healthy Eating

> A Group

>

> for families on

>

> how to eat healthy.

>

> Health

> Looking for Love?

>

> Find relationship

>

> advice and answers.

> .

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date:

12/30/2007 11:27 AM

>

>

[Guest guest]

My opinion is that the reason why some people who are suppose to have faith

which calls them to be loving and kind, but instead are mean and ugly, are

people who are religious instead of spiritual.

cw

-- Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

Gracia, you might want to educate yourself as to why some

people don't write the name of G-d. I think it is perfectly

fine that you don't have a belief system, but you are right,

people who are ignorant are often unkind, some don't

even realize what they do.

Roni

Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the

world and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c

of her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into

the Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected

the truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books

too, and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the

TORAH that says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen

the exodus did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses

hoofs and bones, and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea.

If you want me to send you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this

is truth. Earth may be older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old.

Guess you can call it " old fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Recent Activity

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11:27 AM

[Guest guest]

That is true of SOME people no matter what they believe. In this world there are

loving,

kind people, there are mean, hateful people, and something in between. They

come from

all races and religions, all countries, both genders, all ages, and I have

found that it

really doesn't matter what they believe, or if they believe anything at all.

The only thing

that matters is if they treat people well or not. This trait could come from

their genetics,

or their upbringing, or the knocks that they've encountered in life and how

they react to

them. Labelling any group is innacurate at least and hurtful at most.

Roni

Crystal <sweetnwright@...> wrote:

My opinion is that the reason why some people who are suppose to have

faith

which calls them to be loving and kind, but instead are mean and ugly, are

people who are religious instead of spiritual.

cw

-- Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

Gracia, you might want to educate yourself as to why some

people don't write the name of G-d. I think it is perfectly

fine that you don't have a belief system, but you are right,

people who are ignorant are often unkind, some don't

even realize what they do.

Roni

Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the

world and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c

of her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into

the Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected

the truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books

too, and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the

TORAH that says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen

the exodus did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses

hoofs and bones, and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea.

If you want me to send you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this

is truth. Earth may be older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old.

Guess you can call it " old fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Recent Activity

a.. 9New Members

Visit Your Group

Cancer Support

Groups on

Find answers,

connect with others.

Healthy Eating

A Group

for families on

how to eat healthy.

Health

Looking for Love?

Find relationship

advice and answers.

...

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.

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11:27 AM

[Guest guest]

What I am saying is that people who are mean are sometimes religious in

nature instead of looking at things from a spiritual viewpoint, they cast

judgement. Jesus talked about religious people. It is religion that makes

them say mean things in judgement. I feel like am not getting my point out.

You said you knew a Mormon lady who is ignorant and unkind because of her

beliefs so I was responding to why I thing she is unkind because of her

beliefs. DId I make any sense at all to anyone????

cw

-- Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

Gracia, you might want to educate yourself as to why some

people don't write the name of G-d. I think it is perfectly

fine that you don't have a belief system, but you are right,

people who are ignorant are often unkind, some don't

even realize what they do.

Roni

Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the

world and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c

of her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into

the Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected

the truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books

too, and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the

TORAH that says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen

the exodus did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses

hoofs and bones, and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea.

If you want me to send you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this

is truth. Earth may be older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old.

Guess you can call it " old fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

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[Guest guest]

I do understand what you are saying, that people who pay more attention to the

dogma

than the spirit of the religion tend to be that way. It wasn't me who knew the

Mormon

lady, it was Gracia. My point was that people can be unkind and mean no matter

what

their beliefs or non beliefs are.

Roni

Crystal <sweetnwright@...> wrote:

What I am saying is that people who are mean are sometimes religious

in

nature instead of looking at things from a spiritual viewpoint, they cast

judgement. Jesus talked about religious people. It is religion that makes

them say mean things in judgement. I feel like am not getting my point out.

You said you knew a Mormon lady who is ignorant and unkind because of her

beliefs so I was responding to why I thing she is unkind because of her

beliefs. DId I make any sense at all to anyone????

cw

-- Re: Radionuclide dating: OFF TOPIC

Gracia, you might want to educate yourself as to why some

people don't write the name of G-d. I think it is perfectly

fine that you don't have a belief system, but you are right,

people who are ignorant are often unkind, some don't

even realize what they do.

Roni

Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

I just don't see the need for a belief system. I prefer to marvel at the

world and accept that much is beyond my comprehension.

I have a friend who is a Mormon. In many ways she is ignorant and unkind b/c

of her beliefs.

Gracia

and I think it's OK to spell out the word God LOL (which is dog spelled

backwords)

Roni,

While I agree it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by YHWH. And,

yes, I have questioned " who had the authority to admit certain books into

the Bible, and leave some out " I have faith that YHWH ultimately protected

the truth. Yes, the TORAH was found in the dead sea scrolls, and other books

too, and they match word for word from ancient texts. So, I believe the

TORAH that says man is only about 6,000 years old...and the flood did happen

the exodus did happen, the red sea did part (they have found the horses

hoofs and bones, and chariot wheels all preserved by coral in the red sea.

If you want me to send you the proof, I'll be happy to show you. All of this

is truth. Earth may be older, but life on this planet, 6,000 years old.

Guess you can call it " old fashioned faith "

Passionate follower of YHWH,

Blessings,

Recent Activity

a.. 9New Members

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connect with others.

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for families on

how to eat healthy.

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advice and answers.

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Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007

11:27 AM