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Hi Dusty,

The Healthy Origins brand at iherb.com uses olive oil....good stuff.

They also say " No sugar, salt, starch, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy,

dairy and no preservatives, artificial colors or artificial flavors. "

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Dusty

Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:08 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Chuck/Neil

I was just diagnosed Vit. D Deficient - blood level of 20. Doc wanted me to

take 50,000 IU for 6 weeks and be seen again. When I

got to pharmacy and got patient insert - the pills have yellow dye (I'm

allergic) and soybean oil.

I can't use prescription now because of the dye, but wouldn't the soybean

oil be a problem for all of us?

Do you know if I can use the dry Vitamin D OTC and try to get as much of

that into me as possible? Or does it have to be a gelcap with Vit. D?

Dusty -

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Dusty,

From what I understand what's important is that you are sure it is Vit

D 3. Some might say that the gelcap will absorb better but I do not

know if that is true. I still am wondering about the soybean oil.

Does anyone have an answer for this? Chuck? :)

Venizia

>

> I was just diagnosed Vit. D Deficient - blood level of 20. Doc

wanted me to

> take 50,000 IU for 6 weeks and be seen again. When I

> got to pharmacy and got patient insert - the pills have yellow dye (I'm

> allergic) and soybean oil.

>

> I can't use prescription now because of the dye, but wouldn't the

soybean

> oil be a problem for all of us?

>

> Do you know if I can use the dry Vitamin D OTC and try to get as much of

> that into me as possible? Or does it have to be a gelcap with Vit. D?

>

> Dusty -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Hi Venizia,

Yes, it should be in a oil base. Mine are olive oil base, from the health

food store.

Hugs,

venizia1948 <nelsonck@...> wrote:

Dusty,

From what I understand what's important is that you are sure it is Vit

D 3. Some might say that the gelcap will absorb better but I do not

know if that is true. I still am wondering about the soybean oil.

Does anyone have an answer for this? Chuck? :)

Venizia

>

> I was just diagnosed Vit. D Deficient - blood level of 20. Doc

wanted me to

> take 50,000 IU for 6 weeks and be seen again. When I

> got to pharmacy and got patient insert - the pills have yellow dye (I'm

> allergic) and soybean oil.

>

> I can't use prescription now because of the dye, but wouldn't the

soybean

> oil be a problem for all of us?

>

> Do you know if I can use the dry Vitamin D OTC and try to get as much of

> that into me as possible? Or does it have to be a gelcap with Vit. D?

>

> Dusty -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Venizia,

You wrote:

>

> From what I understand what's important is that you are sure it is Vit

> D 3. Some might say that the gelcap will absorb better but I do not

> know if that is true. I still am wondering about the soybean oil.

> Does anyone have an answer for this? Chuck? :)

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. The D-2 (ergocalciferol) is

derived from yeast or other plants, so it is prone to be in tablets. D-3

(cholecalciferol) is derived from lanolin (from sheep), fish or fish

oil, such as cod liver oil, so it dissolves or mixes more readily with

oils in capsules. Both are used to fortify milk and other dairy products.

For many years D3 has been touted as the more potent of the two by about

30-50%, depending on the study. It is the type (actually about 37

variant molecules) that is produced in our skin by sunlight. Perhaps

this is where the recommendation comes from to which you refer.

However, there have been recent studies that suggest that they are about

equal in health benefits, since both forms are transformed in the liver

into hormones that actually do the work, particularly with calcium

metabolism. These include the 25- hydroxyvitamin D (a non-active

'storage' form), and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, the biologically active

form that is tightly controlled by the body. See M.F. Holick, R.M.

Biancuzzo, T.C. Chen, E.K. Klein, A. Young, D. Bibuld, R. Reitz, W.

Salameh, A. Ameri, and A.D. Tannenbaum, " Vitamin D2 is as effective as

vitamin D3 in maintaining circulating concentrations of

25-hydroxyvitamin D, " Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 18

December 2007.

I doubt that the small amount of soy in a gel capsule will pose a

significant risk to folks who are already replacing their thyroid

hormones. It might be more of problem for people with a partially

working thyroid.

Chuck

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Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer. D3 is the form

that comes from sunshine, the natural form. D2 is the synthetic version made

by irradiating fungus with ultraviolet light, made in the lab. The D3

natural form is most always cheaper too.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/11/5387?ck=nck

" Vitamin D2 Is Much Less Effective than Vitamin D3 in Humans

Vitamin D2 potency is less than one third that of vitamin D3. Physicians

resorting to use of vitamin D2 should be aware of its markedly lower potency

and shorter duration of action relative to vitamin D3.

We showed that vitamin D3 raises and maintains 25OHD levels to a

substantially greater degree than does vitamin D2, with a differential

potency of at least 3-fold, and more likely closer to 10-fold. Clearly,

vitamin D3 is the preferable form of vitamin D. "

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/4/854?ijkey=5c3260119734b33363e3

57e3901cf5e75df49565 & keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

" Evidence that vitamin D3 increases serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D more

efficiently than does vitamin D2

In all species tested, except humans, biological differences between

vitamins D2 and D3 are accepted as fact. To test the presumption of

equivalence in humans, we compared the ability of equal molar quantities of

vitamin D2 or D3 to increase serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D], the

measure of vitamin D nutrition. Subjects took 260 nmol (approximately 4000

IU) vitamin D2 (n=17) or vitamin D3 (n=55) daily for 14 d. 25(OH)D was

assayed with a method that detects both the vitamin D2 and D3 forms.

Although the 1.7-times greater efficacy for vitamin D3 shown here may seem

small, it is more than what others have shown for 25(OH)D increases when

comparing 2-fold differences in vitamin D3 dose. The assumption that

vitamins D2 and D3 have equal nutritional value is probably wrong and should

be reconsidered. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17023693?ordinalpos=12 & itool=EntrezSystem

2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

" The case against ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) as a vitamin supplement.

Supplemental vitamin D is available in 2 distinct forms: ergocalciferol

(vitamin D2) and cholecalciferol (vitamin D3). Pharmacopoeias have

officially regarded these 2 forms as equivalent and interchangeable, yet

this presumption of equivalence is based on studies of rickets prevention in

infants conducted 70 y ago. The emergence of 25-hydroxyvitamin D as a

measure of vitamin D status provides an objective, quantitative measure of

the biological response to vitamin D administration. As a result, vitamin D3

has proven to be the more potent form of vitamin D in all primate species,

including humans. Despite an emerging body of evidence suggesting several

plausible explanations for the greater bioefficacy of vitamin D3, the form

of vitamin D used in major preparations of prescriptions in North America is

vitamin D2. The case that vitamin D2 should no longer be considered

equivalent to vitamin D3 is based on differences in their efficacy at

raising serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D, diminished binding of vitamin D2

metabolites to vitamin D binding protein in plasma, and a nonphysiologic

metabolism and shorter shelf life of vitamin D2. Vitamin D2, or

ergocalciferol, should not be regarded as a nutrient suitable for

supplementation or fortification. "

And then there is Dr. , not a research scientist, but rather a

cardiologist who actually treats real live humans, not test tubes like most

other scientists. He says...

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20D

" In my experience, D2/ergocalciferol often exerts no effect whatsoever. One

woman I consulted on came into the office having been prescribed Drisdol

capsules, 50,000 units every day for the past 18 months (by mistake by her

physician). Blood level of active 25-OH-vitamin D3: Zero. In my view,

prescription vitamin D2 is yet another example of drug manufacturer scams, a

product that provides no advantages, costs more, but yields bigger profits. "

Neil

________________________________

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Chuck B

Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 7:29 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Chuck/Neil

Venizia,

You wrote:

>

> From what I understand what's important is that you are sure it is Vit

> D 3. Some might say that the gelcap will absorb better but I do not

> know if that is true. I still am wondering about the soybean oil.

> Does anyone have an answer for this? Chuck? :)

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. The D-2 (ergocalciferol) is

derived from yeast or other plants, so it is prone to be in tablets. D-3

(cholecalciferol) is derived from lanolin (from sheep), fish or fish

oil, such as cod liver oil, so it dissolves or mixes more readily with

oils in capsules. Both are used to fortify milk and other dairy products.

For many years D3 has been touted as the more potent of the two by about

30-50%, depending on the study. It is the type (actually about 37

variant molecules) that is produced in our skin by sunlight. Perhaps

this is where the recommendation comes from to which you refer.

However, there have been recent studies that suggest that they are about

equal in health benefits, since both forms are transformed in the liver

into hormones that actually do the work, particularly with calcium

metabolism. These include the 25- hydroxyvitamin D (a non-active

'storage' form), and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, the biologically active

form that is tightly controlled by the body. See M.F. Holick, R.M.

Biancuzzo, T.C. Chen, E.K. Klein, A. Young, D. Bibuld, R. Reitz, W.

Salameh, A. Ameri, and A.D. Tannenbaum, " Vitamin D2 is as effective as

vitamin D3 in maintaining circulating concentrations of

25-hydroxyvitamin D, " Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 18

December 2007.

I doubt that the small amount of soy in a gel capsule will pose a

significant risk to folks who are already replacing their thyroid

hormones. It might be more of problem for people with a partially

working thyroid.

Chuck

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Chuck,

I was asking if the soybean oil was a concern for us in regard to

being hypoT. So, I have hashi's which I understand means I still have

a thyriod that is functioning somewhat. I would be better off finding

a gelcap without the soybean oil. I take 50,000 units twice a week.

Venizia

> >

> > From what I understand what's important is that you are sure it is Vit

> > D 3. Some might say that the gelcap will absorb better but I do not

> > know if that is true. I still am wondering about the soybean oil.

> > Does anyone have an answer for this? Chuck? :)

>

> I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. The D-2 (ergocalciferol) is

> derived from yeast or other plants, so it is prone to be in tablets.

D-3

> (cholecalciferol) is derived from lanolin (from sheep), fish or fish

> oil, such as cod liver oil, so it dissolves or mixes more readily with

> oils in capsules. Both are used to fortify milk and other dairy

products.

>

> For many years D3 has been touted as the more potent of the two by

about

> 30-50%, depending on the study. It is the type (actually about 37

> variant molecules) that is produced in our skin by sunlight. Perhaps

> this is where the recommendation comes from to which you refer.

>

> However, there have been recent studies that suggest that they are

about

> equal in health benefits, since both forms are transformed in the liver

> into hormones that actually do the work, particularly with calcium

> metabolism. These include the 25- hydroxyvitamin D (a non-active

> 'storage' form), and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, the biologically active

> form that is tightly controlled by the body. See M.F. Holick, R.M.

> Biancuzzo, T.C. Chen, E.K. Klein, A. Young, D. Bibuld, R. Reitz, W.

> Salameh, A. Ameri, and A.D. Tannenbaum, " Vitamin D2 is as effective as

> vitamin D3 in maintaining circulating concentrations of

> 25-hydroxyvitamin D, " Journal of Clinical Endocrinology &

Metabolism, 18

> December 2007.

>

> I doubt that the small amount of soy in a gel capsule will pose a

> significant risk to folks who are already replacing their thyroid

> hormones. It might be more of problem for people with a partially

> working thyroid.

>

> Chuck

>

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Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer. D3 is the

form that comes from sunshine, the natural form. D2 is the synthetic

version made by irradiating fungus with ultraviolet light, made in the

lab. The D3 natural form is most always cheaper too.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/11/5387?ck=nck

" Vitamin D2 Is Much Less Effective than Vitamin D3 in Humans

Vitamin D2 potency is less than one third that of vitamin D3.

Physicians resorting to use of vitamin D2 should be aware of its

markedly lower potency and shorter duration of action relative to

vitamin D3.

We showed that vitamin D3 raises and maintains 25OHD levels to a

substantially greater degree than does vitamin D2, with a differential

potency of at least 3-fold, and more likely closer to 10-fold.

Clearly, vitamin D3 is the preferable form of vitamin D. "

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/4/854?ijkey=5c3260119734b33363e357e3\

901cf5e75df49565 & keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

" Evidence that vitamin D3 increases serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D more

efficiently than does vitamin D2

In all species tested, except humans, biological differences between

vitamins D2 and D3 are accepted as fact. To test the presumption of

equivalence in humans, we compared the ability of equal molar

quantities of vitamin D2 or D3 to increase serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D

[25(OH)D], the measure of vitamin D nutrition. Subjects took 260 nmol

(approximately 4000 IU) vitamin D2 (n=17) or vitamin D3 (n=55) daily

for 14 d. 25(OH)D was assayed with a method that detects both the

vitamin D2 and D3 forms. Although the 1.7-times greater efficacy for

vitamin D3 shown here may seem small, it is more than what others have

shown for 25(OH)D increases when comparing 2-fold differences in

vitamin D3 dose. The assumption that vitamins D2 and D3 have equal

nutritional value is probably wrong and should be reconsidered. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17023693?ordinalpos=12 & itool=EntrezSystem2.PE\

ntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

" The case against ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) as a vitamin supplement.

Supplemental vitamin D is available in 2 distinct forms:

ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) and cholecalciferol (vitamin D3).

Pharmacopoeias have officially regarded these 2 forms as equivalent

and interchangeable, yet this presumption of equivalence is based on

studies of rickets prevention in infants conducted 70 y ago. The

emergence of 25-hydroxyvitamin D as a measure of vitamin D status

provides an objective, quantitative measure of the biological response

to vitamin D administration. As a result, vitamin D3 has proven to be

the more potent form of vitamin D in all primate species, including

humans. Despite an emerging body of evidence suggesting several

plausible explanations for the greater bioefficacy of vitamin D3, the

form of vitamin D used in major preparations of prescriptions in North

America is vitamin D2. The case that vitamin D2 should no longer be

considered equivalent to vitamin D3 is based on differences in their

efficacy at raising serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D, diminished binding of

vitamin D2 metabolites to vitamin D binding protein in plasma, and a

nonphysiologic metabolism and shorter shelf life of vitamin D2.

Vitamin D2, or ergocalciferol, should not be regarded as a nutrient

suitable for supplementation or fortification. "

And then there is Dr. , not a research scientist, but

rather a cardiologist who actually treats real live humans, not test

tubes like most other scientists. He says...

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20D

" In my experience, D2/ergocalciferol often exerts no effect

whatsoever. One woman I consulted on came into the office having been

prescribed Drisdol capsules, 50,000 units every day for the past 18

months (by mistake by her physician). Blood level of active

25-OH-vitamin D3: Zero. In my view, prescription vitamin D2 is yet

another example of drug manufacturer scams, a product that provides no

advantages, costs more, but yields bigger profits. "

Neil

> >

> > From what I understand what's important is that you are sure it is Vit

> > D 3. Some might say that the gelcap will absorb better but I do not

> > know if that is true. I still am wondering about the soybean oil.

> > Does anyone have an answer for this? Chuck? :)

>

> I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. The D-2 (ergocalciferol) is

> derived from yeast or other plants, so it is prone to be in tablets.

D-3

> (cholecalciferol) is derived from lanolin (from sheep), fish or fish

> oil, such as cod liver oil, so it dissolves or mixes more readily with

> oils in capsules. Both are used to fortify milk and other dairy

products.

>

> For many years D3 has been touted as the more potent of the two by

about

> 30-50%, depending on the study. It is the type (actually about 37

> variant molecules) that is produced in our skin by sunlight. Perhaps

> this is where the recommendation comes from to which you refer.

>

> However, there have been recent studies that suggest that they are

about

> equal in health benefits, since both forms are transformed in the liver

> into hormones that actually do the work, particularly with calcium

> metabolism. These include the 25- hydroxyvitamin D (a non-active

> 'storage' form), and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, the biologically active

> form that is tightly controlled by the body. See M.F. Holick, R.M.

> Biancuzzo, T.C. Chen, E.K. Klein, A. Young, D. Bibuld, R. Reitz, W.

> Salameh, A. Ameri, and A.D. Tannenbaum, " Vitamin D2 is as effective as

> vitamin D3 in maintaining circulating concentrations of

> 25-hydroxyvitamin D, " Journal of Clinical Endocrinology &

Metabolism, 18

> December 2007.

>

> I doubt that the small amount of soy in a gel capsule will pose a

> significant risk to folks who are already replacing their thyroid

> hormones. It might be more of problem for people with a partially

> working thyroid.

>

> Chuck

>

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neil wrote:

>

> Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The largest

dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you will

need a wheel barrow.

Chuck

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Your right Neil, I'd need a wheel barrow. Well, I am going to see my

new doctor soon and I am going to get another 25 hydroxy test. Haven't

had one since last June. I do not think I need to take 50,000 twice a

week. In June I was at 47. I am concerned I may be getting more than

I need.

Thanks for checking Neil!

Venizia

-- In hypothyroidism , Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

>

> neil wrote:

> >

> > Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

>

> I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The

largest

> dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you will

> need a wheel barrow.

>

> Chuck

>

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100,000iu weekly sounds like an incredibly high dose. I would be

frightened to take that much. I take 42,000 a week, but am a big guy

at 6'4'' and 250lb, and this gets me to 50ng/ml. My wife takes

28,000iu weekly to get to the same blood level.

Since the Healthy Origins gels (no soy) come in 2,400iu very small

gels, no wheelbarrow needed. Just a couple of gels a day gets it done.

Neil

> >

> > Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

>

> I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The

largest

> dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you will

> need a wheel barrow.

>

> Chuck

>

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Hi Neil,

Yes, I stopped taking it twice a week starting last week. I am 5' 2 "

and I usually need half of what most people can take in meds. I am

extremely sensitive to meds. What amazes me is when I questioned this

doctor about that amount, actually a couple of doctors about that

amount, they said it is ok. I don't believe it.

Venizia

-- In hypothyroidism , " neil " <neilneil@...> wrote:

>

> 100,000iu weekly sounds like an incredibly high dose. I would be

> frightened to take that much. I take 42,000 a week, but am a big guy

> at 6'4'' and 250lb, and this gets me to 50ng/ml. My wife takes

> 28,000iu weekly to get to the same blood level.

>

> Since the Healthy Origins gels (no soy) come in 2,400iu very small

> gels, no wheelbarrow needed. Just a couple of gels a day gets it done.

>

> Neil

>

>

> > >

> > > Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

> >

> > I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The

> largest

> > dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you will

> > need a wheel barrow.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

>

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Venizia,

That wasn't Neil. You're riding in MY wheelbarrow. Two >> in the old

message show what Neil said. Single > is what I said. In this post, you

have the single quote >, I have two >> and Neil has three >>>.

Chuck

>

>

> Your right Neil, I'd need a wheel barrow. Well, I am going to see my

> new doctor soon and I am going to get another 25 hydroxy test. Haven't

> had one since last June. I do not think I need to take 50,000 twice a

> week. In June I was at 47. I am concerned I may be getting more than

> I need.

>

> Thanks for checking Neil!

>

> Venizia

>

> -- In hypothyroidism

> <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>, Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

> >

> > neil wrote:

> > >

> > > Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

> >

> > I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The

> largest

> > dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you will

> > need a wheel barrow.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

>

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Oh man that's too confusing....never even noticed that. Is that what

those things mean! I learn something everyday here. Well, thank you

for your comments....it is always appreciated....gotta go NOW...oh

wait, I still have 25 min. before show time.

Venizia

- In hypothyroidism , Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

>

> Venizia,

>

> That wasn't Neil. You're riding in MY wheelbarrow. Two >> in the old

> message show what Neil said. Single > is what I said. In this post, you

> have the single quote >, I have two >> and Neil has three >>>.

>

> Chuck

>

>

> >

> >

> > Your right Neil, I'd need a wheel barrow. Well, I am going to see my

> > new doctor soon and I am going to get another 25 hydroxy test. Haven't

> > had one since last June. I do not think I need to take 50,000 twice a

> > week. In June I was at 47. I am concerned I may be getting more than

> > I need.

> >

> > Thanks for checking Neil!

> >

> > Venizia

> >

> > -- In hypothyroidism

> > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>, Chuck B <gumboyaya@> wrote:

> > >

> > > neil wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

> > >

> > > I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The

> > largest

> > > dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you

will

> > > need a wheel barrow.

> > >

> > > Chuck

> > >

> >

>

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If the doctors put you off for months you can always order your own

blood tests, I do this often. Same labs, etc, that the doctor uses anyway.

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC081950.html

Neil

> > > >

> > > > Supplementing vitamin D with the " D3 " form is a no brainer...

> > >

> > > I found D3 in tablet form at Walmart this afternoon. No soy. The

> > largest

> > > dose was 1,000 IU, though. If you need 50,000 twice a week, you

will

> > > need a wheel barrow.

> > >

> > > Chuck

> > >

> >

>

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you do not want to take synthetic vitamin D--you want the bioidentical kind.

I think that is D3.

gracia

Chuck,

I was asking if the soybean oil was a concern for us in regard to

being hypoT. So, I have hashi's which I understand means I still have

a thyriod that is functioning somewhat. I would be better off finding

a gelcap without the soybean oil. I take 50,000 units twice a week.

Venizia

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D3 is what I am taking. I am just concerned about the amount I am taking.

Venizia

-- In hypothyroidism , " Gracia " <circe@...> wrote:

>

>

> you do not want to take synthetic vitamin D--you want the

bioidentical kind. I think that is D3.

> gracia

>

> Chuck,

>

> I was asking if the soybean oil was a concern for us in regard to

> being hypoT. So, I have hashi's which I understand means I still have

> a thyriod that is functioning somewhat. I would be better off finding

> a gelcap without the soybean oil. I take 50,000 units twice a week.

>

> Venizia

>

>

> Recent Activity

> a.. 10New Members

> Visit Your Group

> Health

> Live Better Longer

>

> Find new ways

>

> to stay healthy.

>

> Biz Resources

> Y! Small Business

>

> Articles, tools,

>

> forms, and more.

>

>

> Parenting Zone

>

> Share experiences

>

> with other parents.

> .

>

>

>

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