Re: What are the Principal Causes of Death in CR Rodents?

[Guest guest]

I have no idea of the answer to your question, but I am glad you asked it and hope that some brilliant CR member will come up with something. What do we die of if we are skinny with good hearts and arteries?

[Guest guest]

I liked your question...I liked your answer more! I do not like the emphasis on the CRON diet for life extension...instead of quality of life. I, too, faced death due to disease, therefore I am not motivated in any way to live a lot longer by cutting calories primarily because I have looked death in the eye and I am not the least bit afraid anymore. I was more afraid of living a debilitated life than I was of dying from the debilitation. In fact, I wanted to die if living meant staying in the state I found myself in. Rather cowardly of me...not proud of that....but I did deep down believe, that I was not meant to stay that way in my 40's.

I see daily the dying by inches in people who live their lives profligately or squanderingly. I can determine to a degree the QOML but I cannot determine the time of it's physical end. However the force of my desire to live has a great impact in certain situations....coming out of impending physical disaster, not putting myself in dangerous situations, believing that there is a healthier way to live and continuuing to be a researcher for my own health and wellbeing.

Perhaps the most glaring thing missing from this list, is attention to the inner-person. Feeding our real self a feast of faith, self-nuture, and friendships may be the biggest life-extender of all. But dare I say this here? Even as I dissed Dr. Weil and his chubby cheeks, he did bring that point up when talking about the Okinawans. He did diminish the restricted calorie component in favor of their overall quality of life. That feast I spoke of is common among people who live the longest. I don't think that they measure their micronutrients. But the immeasurable positives in their lives fill them up in such a way, that poor quality food and the overeating of food is not an problem for them.

[Guest guest]

CRON extends life and DELAYS disease. So if you're prone to a certain

malady, you'll eventually get it, but hopefully much later.

People do not not necessarily from anything in particular. My mother who

died at almost 98 just stopped eating and became frail. Then slipped into a

coma (on her last day) and died. This is a common way for the very aged to

die. Alternatively, you might want to look into the way Okinawans die.

But die, eventually, they do.

on 1/6/2004 10:04 PM, Rodney at perspect1111@... wrote:

> Should we, if we are on CR, perhaps be

> concentrating on avoiding some other list of illnesses? Or do those

> on CR die predominantly from the same illnesses as the rest of the

> population, but at a greater age?

[Guest guest]

You know what? I thought this original post came from the other CRsociety! This forum does address QOL. My apologies. So my answer was meant to address some things I finding lacking in the other list. Mea Culpa!

Kim

[Guest guest]

Heart muscle "ages"?Does that mean shrink, lose capacity? Thanks for an interesing answer.

[Guest guest]

the heart muscle ages about 1% per year.

----- Original Message -----

From: kimlynette@...

Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:11 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] What are the Principal Causes of Death in CR Rodents?

I have no idea of the answer to your question, but I am glad you asked it and hope that some brilliant CR member will come up with something. What do we die of if we are skinny with good hearts and arteries?

[Guest guest]

> I have no idea of the answer to your question, but I am glad you

> asked it and hope that some brilliant CR member will come up with

> something. What do we die of if we are skinny with good hearts and

> arteries?

*****There are several answers to the question, but they are not

particularly scientific ;-)

We die because of the belief that we have to die.

We die every moment, and are reborn similarly. It is an ongoing

process, too fast to notice while happening (except in deep

meditation). It can, however, be seen, in retrospect, via thought.

We die every night, when sleep overcomes us. And are reborn upon

awakening.

We never really die; only the thought of " me " dies. The body is

eternal, though in varying forms.

Genuine concern about dying may lead one to deeply investigate " who "

dies...who or what is this " me " that is believed to pass away.

There are a LOT of unexamined assumptions, unconscious or semi-

conscious thoughts about these issues, all floating around in

localized consciousness (your brain, my brain), as well as in the

collective unconscious (which we all are tapped into). I suspect

that such diets as CRON are born out of a fear (realized or not) of

dying.

I spent more than three persistent years deep in the " belly of the

beast " with these questions, and was provoked to confront them, head

on, during my dance with cancer, so I have a certain ...

affection ... for them. However, I suspect that this is not the

forum for such dialogues. Anyone experiencing interest in these open-

ended questions can feel free to contact me if so inclinced (Warning:

you may end up losing your investment in your CRON diet! Hahaha!!!)

[Guest guest]

If you find something that needs improvement, by all means post about it.

We strive for improvement of the quality of the posts/files etc. If anyone

has been critiqued for that elsewhere, be assured that we are among friends

here.

I tried to address this problem of " quality of life " in a recent response to

a post from Al . He cross-posted about someone who was worried about when

to eat his nuts. My response was that the guy was driving himself " nuts " .

Quality of life counts!!!

on 1/7/2004 1:23 PM, kimlynette@... at kimlynette@... wrote:

> Perhaps the most glaring thing missing from this list, is attention to

> the inner-person. Feeding our real self a feast of faith, self-nuture, and

> friendships may be the biggest life-extender of all. But dare I say this here?

> Even as I dissed Dr. Weil and his chubby cheeks, he did bring that point up

> when talking about the Okinawans. He did diminish the restricted calorie

> component in favor of their overall quality of life. That feast I spoke of is

> common

> among people who live the longest. I don't think that they measure their

> micronutrients. But the immeasurable positives in their lives fill them up in

> such

> a way, that poor quality food and the overeating of food is not an problem

> for them.

>

[Guest guest]

Can you tell us more about this? How did you conquer the fear of death?

Since we all will face this someday, and no doubt we all have already lost

loved ones , what can you tell us?

on 1/7/2004 1:23 PM, kimlynette@... at kimlynette@... wrote:

I have looked death in the

> eye and I am not the least bit afraid anymore.

[Guest guest]

> If you find something that needs improvement, by all means post

> about it. We strive for improvement of the quality of the

> posts/files etc. If anyone has been critiqued for that elsewhere,

> be assured that we are among friends here.

*****This has been my experience too Francesca. This is a

wonderful " meeting place " with a fine variety of personalities, all

of whom appear to be exceedingly respectful of our apparent

differences.

> I tried to address this problem of " quality of life " in a recent

> response to a post from Al . He cross-posted about someone who was

> worried about when to eat his nuts. My response was that the guy

> was driving himself " nuts " . Quality of life counts!!!

*****I found your response to be wonderful warm and gently amusing!

Thank you, and keep up the good work!

[Guest guest]

I infer it loses cardiac capacity. Forget where I read it - I'll try to dig it up.

Just guessing, but after reading the article, I figured we must start out at maybe 200% at age 20 which accounts for greater physical capability in youth. And if we hold the 20 yo nominal weight we might live the longest.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: kimlynette@...

Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:49 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] What are the Principal Causes of Death in CR Rodents?

Heart muscle "ages"?Does that mean shrink, lose capacity? Thanks for an interesing answer.

[Guest guest]

Here's what I quickly find:

Duthie: Practice of Geriatrics, 3rd ed., Copyright © 1998 W. B. Saunders Company

"Not only is the disease common in this age group, but also cardiovascular disease is a major cause of functional impairment and is the principal cause of death in elderly persons. In addition, elderly persons are affected by cardiovascular changes due to normal aging. These normal cardiovascular aging changes usually affect the person's overall function only minimally. "

"The effect of aging specifically on cardiac output remains controversial. Earlier studies reported an age-related decrease in cardiac output, both at rest and with exercise. [9] Other studies, which included highly functional elderly subjects who were extensively screened for silent cardiovascular disease, reported no significant aging changes in cardiac output. [10] Cardiac output was similar in young and older subjects, both at rest and with exercise; a different mechanism, however, was responsible for the increase in cardiac output with exercise in the two age groups. Younger persons markedly increase their heart rate with exercise, whereas elderly persons, instead of accelerating the heart rate demonstrate an increase in stroke volume due to increased end-diastolic volume. This difference in heart rate with exercise in different age groups is thought to be related to a decrease in sympathetic response in elderly persons secondary to aging changes. A decreased sympathetic response due to aging has also been shown to affect myocardial contractility and vasomotor reactivity in elderly persons. The decreased response does not appear to be related to a reduction in serum catecholamines because plasma norepinephrine levels have been found to be higher in elderly persons than in younger persons."

9. Brandfonbrener M, Landowne M, Shock NW: Changes in cardiac output with age. Circulation 1955;12:557-566.

Probably not going to find that ref in Medline, other than the title. Might make interesting trip to the library.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: kimlynette@...

Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:49 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] What are the Principal Causes of Death in CR Rodents?

Heart muscle "ages"?Does that mean shrink, lose capacity? Thanks for an interesing answer.