My opinion

[Guest guest]

On page 17-18 it lists all the possible complications. Number 8 (severe nausea,

vomiting, indigestion, abdominal pain, gastritis and ulcers) which I feel gives

me a good idea what could happen, also he mentions in #21 that there are other

recognized and unrecognized risks and complications. I really feel he gave us a

very good idea of the situations we could exprience with this surgery. OF

course I am one person's opinion. I feel that most surgeons don't EVEN go this

far to tell us what to expect. I don't believe they have handbooks or require

the expensive steps Dr. R requires for this surgery. No surgery is perfect. I

wish it was. I feel bad for all of you who have not had success with this

procedure. Maybe it was a bad choice for you.

aW

MGB 5/28/00

214/115ish

Re: Do you remember ?

just for clarification, these dangers (about the

higher risk for bile and its possible effects) WEREN'T

in the handbook--or disclosed in any way--when i had

my surgery (9-14-00), nor, i believe, when michelle,

had hers. (i am not sure about her date but think it

was before me.) in fact, some of this came up right

before i had my surgery (because of the so-called

" grumpy doctors " and it was all pretty emphatically

pooh-poohed by dr. r. i understand that some info on

the risks was added later, although currently, there

is almost nothing on the clos.net site or the patient

manual...i find only the following paragraph, which

clearly is not current or accurate, since two patients

have had a revision to rny to treat bile problems and

there are several others including michelle who have

been unsuccessful treating the problems with

medication:

" Bile Reflux Gastritis occurs when bile flows back

into the stomach. We have seen symptoms of Bile

Reflux Gastritis in 6% of our patients. In every case

the patient's symptoms resolved after treatment with

antacids and Actigall. "

as i recall from her earlier posts, michelle has been

seeing various doctors for the problem, but as of yet

has not found treatment.

and as an aside, although i never saw her post

anything very negative to the post-op group, i do

remember michelle getting MAJORLY blasted for

reporting some of her problems several months ago.

anna

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

I check email on the web, and I only got this message because a

left it in her reply. How ODD! I wonder if it will be in the

digests. Anyway, I will go back and check the archives, but I really

don't remember anyone blasting her, not disagreeing with you, just

saying that my memory may be faulty.

I do have to ask one question. When you had your surgery, did you

not consider the fact that it was a new surgery, and there could be

negative and very painful side effects? I mean, there really are

still no specific long term statistics. At this point, anything and

everything certainly goes. And I knew that when I made the decision

to have the surgery. I am just curious if the circumstances were

different when you had surgery. I understand at one point that Dr R

specifically said that the surgery did not cause Bile Reflux, but

a is right in saying that there are other recognized and

unrecognized risks. Did Dr R not require the extensive information

when you had your surgery? I filled out paper after paper in the

hospital. When I signed my name to the dotted line, I understood

that anything and everything could happen. I certainly know that

even now there are 5 10 and 15 year effects that maybe no one has

even considered at this point. You know? I don't know that I am

effectively communicating what I'm trying to say One point I do

wish to make is that I believe that Dr R honestly believed that the

surgery did not cause Bile reflux, and there was no mention of it

because of that fact. It is now a known effect, and is mentioned.

Concerning the statistics, it is a little outdated, and considering

he hasn't done surgery in almost 4 months (first it was in a " couple

of weeks " and then it was the middle of July... both have come and

gone), but I believe that when/if Dr R gets up and going that the

statistics will be changed to reflect that.

manda in va

manda

> On page 17-18 it lists all the possible complications. Number 8

(severe nausea, vomiting, indigestion, abdominal pain, gastritis and

ulcers) which I feel gives me a good idea what could happen, also he

mentions in #21 that there are other recognized and unrecognized

risks and complications. I really feel he gave us a very good idea

of the situations we could exprience with this surgery. OF course I

am one person's opinion. I feel that most surgeons don't EVEN go

this far to tell us what to expect. I don't believe they have

handbooks or require the expensive steps Dr. R requires for this

surgery. No surgery is perfect. I wish it was. I feel bad for all

of you who have not had success with this procedure. Maybe it was a

bad choice for you.

>

> aW

> MGB 5/28/00

> 214/115ish

> Re: Do you remember ?

>

>

> just for clarification, these dangers (about the

> higher risk for bile and its possible effects) WEREN'T

> in the handbook--or disclosed in any way--when i had

> my surgery (9-14-00), nor, i believe, when michelle,

> had hers. (i am not sure about her date but think it

> was before me.) in fact, some of this came up right

> before i had my surgery (because of the so-called

> " grumpy doctors " and it was all pretty emphatically

> pooh-poohed by dr. r. i understand that some info on

> the risks was added later, although currently, there

> is almost nothing on the clos.net site or the patient

> manual...i find only the following paragraph, which

> clearly is not current or accurate, since two patients

> have had a revision to rny to treat bile problems and

> there are several others including michelle who have

> been unsuccessful treating the problems with

> medication:

> " Bile Reflux Gastritis occurs when bile flows back

> into the stomach. We have seen symptoms of Bile

> Reflux Gastritis in 6% of our patients. In every case

> the patient's symptoms resolved after treatment with

> antacids and Actigall. "

>

> as i recall from her earlier posts, michelle has been

> seeing various doctors for the problem, but as of yet

> has not found treatment.

>

> and as an aside, although i never saw her post

> anything very negative to the post-op group, i do

> remember michelle getting MAJORLY blasted for

> reporting some of her problems several months ago.

> anna

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

yes, manda, i agree: i was VERY aware i was taking a

calculated risk. in fact, i remember on the old list

posting something in response to linda T.(who was then

fanatically PRO-mgb and attacking anyone who said

anything critical of it) saying that people were

shortsighted to think that we weren't taking a huge

leap of faith. imo, ANY wls is an experimental

procedure, and there is no good evidence about how any

of us will do long-term. i assume most of us weighed

that against the known risks of staying obese and made

our choices.

however, i do feel that with the mgb i unknowingly

took an additional risk that i wouldn't have taken

with the rny, and it appears that if dr. r wasn't

aware the bile risks, he certainly should have been.

(the information about the problems has been around

for awhile...most of us just didn't know to go do web

searches on billroth II). i am not dissing anybody

else's choices, but as i have said before, although i

think i have done very well, if i knew then what i

know now, i would have chosen a lap rny with an

experienced surgeon. that appears to me to have all

the benefits of the mgb without the added risk of bile

reflux, which may be rare among us but has been

debilitating for some. although i think linda's

loonies overstate both the chance of having bile

problems and their typical severity, that would have

been enough to persuade me to not to have it, since

otherwise the mgb and lap rny have essentially the

same risks (with the same results, assuming similar

bypass length and pouch size.)

and in regards to michelle being blasted...i think it

was on the old version of this list, but i know she

was, because i kind of got caught in that a bit trying

to defend her...i think it was mostly backlash from

the people furious with linda. there was definitely a

time on the lists when anyone who was open about

having problems was seen as a linda ally and was

treated as such. as we have seen more people come

forward with problems, i think that has alleviated,

but i think too often there still some tendancy to

blame the victim (they should have known

better...didn't they do their research? didn't they

take their supplements? didn't they read the manual?

etc.) that is unfortunate, because what it has done is

drive many of those people to actually become linda t

allies. not only do they not get the support they

deserve from the rest of us, we do not get the

information they have that could help all of better

monitor our health in the future.

anna

-- In @y..., " Manda " <eskieluvr@p...> wrote:

> ,

> I check email on the web, and I only got this

message because a

> left it in her reply. How ODD! I wonder if it will

be in the

> digests. Anyway, I will go back and check the

archives, but I really

> don't remember anyone blasting her, not disagreeing

with you, just

> saying that my memory may be faulty.

>

> I do have to ask one question. When you had your

surgery, did you

> not consider the fact that it was a new surgery, and

there could be

> negative and very painful side effects? I mean,

there really are

> still no specific long term statistics. At this

point, anything and

> everything certainly goes. And I knew that when I

made the decision

> to have the surgery. I am just curious if the

circumstances were

> different when you had surgery. I understand at one

point that Dr R

> specifically said that the surgery did not cause

Bile Reflux, but

> a is right in saying that there are other

recognized and

> unrecognized risks. Did Dr R not require the

extensive information

> when you had your surgery? I filled out paper after

paper in the

> hospital. When I signed my name to the dotted line,

I understood

> that anything and everything could happen. I

certainly know that

> even now there are 5 10 and 15 year effects that

maybe no one has

> even considered at this point. You know? I don't

know that I am

> effectively communicating what I'm trying to say

One point I do

> wish to make is that I believe that Dr R honestly

believed that the

> surgery did not cause Bile reflux, and there was no

mention of it

> because of that fact. It is now a known effect, and

is mentioned.

> Concerning the statistics, it is a little outdated,

and considering

> he hasn't done surgery in almost 4 months (first it

was in a " couple

> of weeks " and then it was the middle of July... both

have come and

> gone), but I believe that when/if Dr R gets up and

going that the

> statistics will be changed to reflect that.

>

> manda in va

>

>

> manda

>

>

> > On page 17-18 it lists all the possible

complications. Number 8

> (severe nausea, vomiting, indigestion, abdominal

pain, gastritis and

> ulcers) which I feel gives me a good idea what could

happen, also he

> mentions in #21 that there are other recognized and

unrecognized

> risks and complications. I really feel he gave us a

very good idea

> of the situations we could exprience with this

surgery. OF course I

> am one person's opinion. I feel that most surgeons

don't EVEN go

> this far to tell us what to expect. I don't believe

they have

> handbooks or require the expensive steps Dr. R

requires for this

> surgery. No surgery is perfect. I wish it was. I

feel bad for all

> of you who have not had success with this procedure.

Maybe it was a

> bad choice for you.

> >

> > aW

> > MGB 5/28/00

> > 214/115ish

> > Re: Do you remember

?

> >

> >

> > just for clarification, these dangers (about the

> > higher risk for bile and its possible effects)

WEREN'T

> > in the handbook--or disclosed in any way--when i

had

> > my surgery (9-14-00), nor, i believe, when

michelle,

> > had hers. (i am not sure about her date but

think it

> > was before me.) in fact, some of this came up

right

> > before i had my surgery (because of the

so-called

> > " grumpy doctors " and it was all pretty

emphatically

> > pooh-poohed by dr. r. i understand that some

info on

> > the risks was added later, although currently,

there

> > is almost nothing on the clos.net site or the

patient

> > manual...i find only the following paragraph,

which

> > clearly is not current or accurate, since two

patients

> > have had a revision to rny to treat bile

problems and

> > there are several others including michelle who

have

> > been unsuccessful treating the problems with

> > medication:

> > " Bile Reflux Gastritis occurs when bile flows

back

> > into the stomach. We have seen symptoms of Bile

> > Reflux Gastritis in 6% of our patients. In

every case

> > the patient's symptoms resolved after treatment

with

> > antacids and Actigall. "

> >

> > as i recall from her earlier posts, michelle has

been

> > seeing various doctors for the problem, but as

of yet

> > has not found treatment.

> >

> > and as an aside, although i never saw her post

> > anything very negative to the post-op group, i

do

> > remember michelle getting MAJORLY blasted for

> > reporting some of her problems several months

ago.

> > anna

> >

> >

> >

> >

__________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi, me again... I understand what you are saying, however, if there were 25% of

all MGB folks experiencing what you are going through, then I understand why you

would consider him not informing folks. Also, the statistics in the hand book

show a decrease of these symtoms over all. I can't really sincerely stereotype

this surgery as being a major cause of bile reflux. But then again, this is

just my opinion.

aW

MGB 5/28/00

214/115ish

Re: My opinion

however, i do feel that with the mgb i unknowingly

took an additional risk that i wouldn't have taken

with the rny, and it appears that if dr. r wasn't

aware the bile risks, he certainly should have been.

(the information about the problems has been around

for awhile...most of us just didn't know to go do web

searches on billroth II).

[Guest guest]

--- Manda <eskieluvr@...> wrote:

> ,

Anyway, I will go back and check the

> archives, but I really

> don't remember anyone blasting her, not disagreeing

> with you, just

> saying that my memory may be faulty.

>

Manda-

I also remember posting her problems on this

list and it caused a FLURRY of postings - but I don't

remember anyone blasting . I thought everyone

was very shocked and concerned BUT very supportive of

.

My memory is not the best - let us know what you find

in the archives.

Margaret in St. Louis

MGB 12/13/00

250 / 165 and holding

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

a,

I agree. I'm sure there are more out there, but 's is the

worst case that I have ever heard of, and unless about 250 people

come forward and say that they live daily with such pain...

I also see 's point. She would have like to have had a more

clear picture of the risks.

manda

> Hi, me again... I understand what you are saying, however, if there

were 25% of all MGB folks experiencing what you are going through,

then I understand why you would consider him not informing folks.

Also, the statistics in the hand book show a decrease of these

symtoms over all. I can't really sincerely stereotype this surgery

as being a major cause of bile reflux. But then again, this is just

my opinion.

>

> aW

> MGB 5/28/00

> 214/115ish

> Re: My opinion

>

>

> however, i do feel that with the mgb i unknowingly

> took an additional risk that i wouldn't have taken

> with the rny, and it appears that if dr. r wasn't

> aware the bile risks, he certainly should have been.

> (the information about the problems has been around

> for awhile...most of us just didn't know to go do web

> searches on billroth II).

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/17/01 6:19:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

annaamerica@... writes:

> i do feel that with the mgb i unknowingly

> took an additional risk that i wouldn't have taken

> with the rny, and it appears that if dr. r wasn't

> aware the bile risks, he certainly should have been.

>

Are you unaware that Jen's friend had an RNY and has huge bile problems???

[Guest guest]

PAULA YOU ARE RIGHT THE 6 GIRLS HERE AT WORK --- NONE THE SAME AS I ON

SURGERY --NEVER HAD THE PAPER WORK OR INSTRUCTION MANUAL WE HAVE --- WE GOT

LOTS MORE INFO OF WHAT WAS TO BE EXSPECTED EVEN IF SOME THINGS WERE NOT SO

CLEAR WE WOULD NOT HAVE GRASP THEM ANYWAY LOOK I AM STILL LEARNING TODAY

WITH THIS GROUP DI

Re: Do you remember ?

>

>

> just for clarification, these dangers (about the

> higher risk for bile and its possible effects) WEREN'T

> in the handbook--or disclosed in any way--when i had

> my surgery (9-14-00), nor, i believe, when michelle,

> had hers. (i am not sure about her date but think it

> was before me.) in fact, some of this came up right

> before i had my surgery (because of the so-called

> " grumpy doctors " and it was all pretty emphatically

> pooh-poohed by dr. r. i understand that some info on

> the risks was added later, although currently, there

> is almost nothing on the clos.net site or the patient

> manual...i find only the following paragraph, which

> clearly is not current or accurate, since two patients

> have had a revision to rny to treat bile problems and

> there are several others including michelle who have

> been unsuccessful treating the problems with

> medication:

> " Bile Reflux Gastritis occurs when bile flows back

> into the stomach. We have seen symptoms of Bile

> Reflux Gastritis in 6% of our patients. In every case

> the patient's symptoms resolved after treatment with

> antacids and Actigall. "

>

> as i recall from her earlier posts, michelle has been

> seeing various doctors for the problem, but as of yet

> has not found treatment.

>

> and as an aside, although i never saw her post

> anything very negative to the post-op group, i do

> remember michelle getting MAJORLY blasted for

> reporting some of her problems several months ago.

> anna

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Amen, sister!

By the time I had my operation, She Who Must Not Be Named had raised

the bile issue, so I was duly warned. After consulting with doctors

I trust, I decided that the speculative risk of BR in the future, or

of stomach cancer 10-15 yrs down the road (an extremely speculative

risk), was far less than the near-certain short-term health problems

I would encounter if I did not get the operation. (As my insurance

wouldn't cover any WLS, the choice for me was MGB or nothing -- RNY

was out of my price range).

I accepted the fact that the price for running these risks is to take

care of myself, have regular exams and blood tests, a yearly

endoscopy and, if corrective measures become necessary, take them.

As says, most of these conditions -- including BR -- can be

corrected if detected early (except in extreme cases). So vigilance

is called for.

So far I've been lucky. My health has improved greatly (empirically

verified by my PCP) and I've suffered no significant side effects. I

hope that, had I crapped out, I would still think my decision process

was sound despite the bad luck.

All the courses of action or inaction have risks. We each have

different risk tolerances. ly, the lack of a track record was

the biggest risk in my view; if I had the money, I probably would

have done an RNY because of this risk, but not because of the risk of

BR or stomach cancer. But I didn't have the dough, so my choices

boiled down to MGB, doing nothing, or starting another demoralizing

yo-yo diet -- doomed to failure from the start.

But my circumstances, financial and otherwise, and my values and my

risk tolerances are not the same as those of others. This is why

I've never advocated the MGB as THE solution, or as superior to other

solutions. All I've ever done is explain how I came to make my

decision.

Yours in Allah,

Jon in Tuscaloosa

MGB 11/22/00

263/171/150

> Hello all,

>

> I see a few fallacies running around the board. I know they are

> unintentional, and I'm thrilled we are having a group discussion

without

> fighting.

>

> The one that bothers me is that only the MGB can cause, or is

causing in

> GREAT numbers, bile reflux. That is an untruth, and it needs to

stop. There

> are hundreds of thousands of people that NEVER had any WLS that

have bile

> reflux. I looked it up and was shocked to know that! And RNY

patients DOOO

> have a higher rate of BR then anyone seems to be admitting. We

have living

> proof in Cat that other WLS patients ALSO experience it. in

Mn shared

> about the wonderful info from the Mayo Clinic just this last week

that shows

> that this is as common in RNY patients and VBG patients as in us.

We are

> just the ones getting the scopes early because we are warned. They

> unfortunately are not.

>

> I spoke with Dr. Quattlebaum Monday morning about this subject. He

said that

> all WLS patients have a 1-2 % chance of mild bile reflux. He said

us MGBers

> might have more a 2% chance than an RNY patient, but that the

marginal

> difference is just that...marginal. I believe him.

>

> As far as the lap RNY having the exact rate of success as the MGB

and less

> risks, I disagree. Maybe post op down the road that is true, but

the risks

> of the lap RNY complication rate is much higher than the MGB, sorry

to say.

> In fact, at one of the university med. centers here, they just lost

their

> tenth lap RNY patient. This is a very difficult procedure and

should only be

> practiced by the best. Unfortunately, not everyone does their

research and

> not all surgeons are willing to admit they do not have the

expertise they

> pretend to have.

>

> I had lap gallbladder surgery that turned into an operation of

OVER 8 hours

> and had many health problems afterwards. I wouldn't want to risk

having an

> unskilled lap guy in me again!

>

> I have NO PROBLEM with any WLS any thinking adult chooses.

Everyone has to

> choose for themselves. But the real reality is that we all take

our risks.

> For those who felt uniformed, I'm sorry about that, truly I am. I

knew the

> risks and took them. If I have bile reflux, I will have it

treated. I

> CERTAINLY and WITHOUT A DOUBT had many health problems...not a

maybe, but HAD

> them. They have been either eleviated or lessened to a minor

problem. That

> is a reality of the here and now. I will deal with tomorrow as it

comes.

>

> I hope I do not ever have to deal with bile reflux. Odds are, I

won't. BUT

> if I do, then I do. Sorry to sound so non-chalant about it, but I

had enough

> health problems to deal with in my daily life that medicating

another

> problem, and usually this CAN be dealt with with medication,

except in

> severe cases, is something I am willing to do if need be.

>

> Best to all of you.

> in Ark

> 3-08

> 322-232

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I feel we had ample opportunity to learn about the risks before. After all

that 10 page letter was difficult to write without doing a bit of reading. I

even read SWMNBN's vitriolic website. I looked at the bariatric surgery

groups list and saw their comments about MGB, BII, RNY, etc.

And like most of us, for me it was either do or die, literally. So most any

risk was worth it. Now that we have lost weight, it is not so critical in

our lives and other things have become more important. This makes it easier

to second guess the now, less important things.

Keath

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```

Keath L Marx, DVM

Blacksburg, VA USA

drkeath@...

334/240/165 12/5/01

Re: My opinion

a,

I agree. I'm sure there are more out there, but 's is the

worst case that I have ever heard of, and unless about 250 people

come forward and say that they live daily with such pain...

I also see 's point. She would have like to have had a more

clear picture of the risks.

manda

> Hi, me again... I understand what you are saying, however, if there

were 25% of all MGB folks experiencing what you are going through,

then I understand why you would consider him not informing folks.

Also, the statistics in the hand book show a decrease of these

symtoms over all. I can't really sincerely stereotype this surgery

as being a major cause of bile reflux. But then again, this is just

my opinion.

>

> aW

> MGB 5/28/00

> 214/115ish

> Re: My opinion

>

>

> however, i do feel that with the mgb i unknowingly

> took an additional risk that i wouldn't have taken

> with the rny, and it appears that if dr. r wasn't

> aware the bile risks, he certainly should have been.

> (the information about the problems has been around

> for awhile...most of us just didn't know to go do web

> searches on billroth II).

[Guest guest]

Great response, . And I agree with all that you've said. I am grateful

every day to feel the way I do, and look the way I do, and have the hope for

the future that I now have which had previously been gone. Whatever the

future brings, I will deal with it. And chances are really good that I will

be better able to do so as a direct result of my MGB than I would have

without it. By far.

PhillyJude MGB 11-3-00 263/195/whatever will be

[Guest guest]

Another wise and wonderful response. I agree. I agree. PhillyJude

[Guest guest]

> Amen, sister!

> But my circumstances, financial and otherwise, and my values

and my risk tolerances are not the same as those of others.

This is why I've never advocated the MGB as THE solution, or as

superior to other solutions. All I've ever done is explain how I

came to make my decision.

>

Amen, Brother and Sister!

Jon, I chose the MGB for exactly the same reason as you and I

too would have gone with the Lap RNY had I been able to have it

covered. Though , I do agree with you that there are far

more complications initially with the RNY especially the open

version!

However, if it were not for the MGB....I would be 370 pounds plus

today and I would be suffering dearly both physically and

mentally.....I could never have scraped up the money for a Lap

RNY.

So for me....I happily traded one set of risks for another.

Now if I were losing weight just a little faster I would be

THRILLED with my choice!!! My health is GREAT. My body is

looking so much better and feeling so much better. If I knew

everyone could have the same outcome as I have had I would

stop strangers on the street and witness to them about my

MGB.......but not everyone has my experience. So I simply say to

anyone crazy enough to ask me lololol that I had WLS and don't

regret it for a second!

I hope I am always able to say that!

Thanks for reading me =)

Beth

370-360?/251/130

Down somewhere between 110 - 120 in 11 months

[Guest guest]

a,

I agree with you. I am one yr post op and still " live "

the manual. I follow the postop directions almost to

the letter. I also try to refer back when Im not sure

about stuff. I agree about being informed. maybe bile

reflux wasnt listed when I had my surgery BUT other

complications unknown was in the manual. As a nurse I

also know that complications can occur on some people

and not on others...just the weird way our bodies

work. So I do feel I was fully informed by having our

manual to go by. Take care and God bless

Jeanne in NY

-103 lbs

MGB 7/20/00

--- justdave <justdave@...> wrote:

> PAULA YOU ARE RIGHT THE 6 GIRLS HERE AT WORK ---

> NONE THE SAME AS I ON

> SURGERY --NEVER HAD THE PAPER WORK OR INSTRUCTION

> MANUAL WE HAVE --- WE GOT

> LOTS MORE INFO OF WHAT WAS TO BE EXSPECTED EVEN IF

> SOME THINGS WERE NOT SO

> CLEAR WE WOULD NOT HAVE GRASP THEM ANYWAY LOOK I

> AM STILL LEARNING TODAY

> WITH THIS GROUP DI

> Re: Do you remember

> ?

> >

> >

> > just for clarification, these dangers (about the

> > higher risk for bile and its possible effects)

> WEREN'T

> > in the handbook--or disclosed in any way--when i

> had

> > my surgery (9-14-00), nor, i believe, when

> michelle,

> > had hers. (i am not sure about her date but

> think it

> > was before me.) in fact, some of this came up

> right

> > before i had my surgery (because of the

> so-called

> > " grumpy doctors " and it was all pretty

> emphatically

> > pooh-poohed by dr. r. i understand that some

> info on

> > the risks was added later, although currently,

> there

> > is almost nothing on the clos.net site or the

> patient

> > manual...i find only the following paragraph,

> which

> > clearly is not current or accurate, since two

> patients

> > have had a revision to rny to treat bile

> problems and

> > there are several others including michelle who

> have

> > been unsuccessful treating the problems with

> > medication:

> > " Bile Reflux Gastritis occurs when bile flows

> back

> > into the stomach. We have seen symptoms of Bile

> > Reflux Gastritis in 6% of our patients. In

> every case

> > the patient's symptoms resolved after treatment

> with

> > antacids and Actigall. "

> >

> > as i recall from her earlier posts, michelle has

> been

> > seeing various doctors for the problem, but as

> of yet

> > has not found treatment.

> >

> > and as an aside, although i never saw her post

> > anything very negative to the post-op group, i

> do

> > remember michelle getting MAJORLY blasted for

> > reporting some of her problems several months

> ago.

> > anna

> >

> >

> >

> >

> __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

---Jon,

I hope you can and will read my personal response to you ...

Lori

In @y..., jsb@j... wrote:

> ,

>

> I did not attack you and am sincerely sorry if I offended you. I

was

> merely trying to point out gently that you were unintentionally

> causing offense to others, and explain why that was.

>

> Theological disputation is not the purpose of this group, nor do our

> religious differences have any bearing on my regard for you as a

> caring and thoughtful woman of high moral character whom I like to

> call my friend. I suggest we drop the subject and return to our

very

> broad common ground!

>

> All the best,

>

> Jon

>

>

> > > > Lori, just some food for thought.....If you are going to have

> > > excess skin

> > > > removed from your abdomen, hips, and thighs wouldn't it better

> to

> > > have it

> > > > done in one surgery versus multiple surgeries?

> > > >

> > > > When I have gotten down enough for excess skin removal, I am

> > prefer

> > > to have

> > > > the least amount of surgeries as possible.

> > > >

> > > > I do agree that it is wise to be in the best of shape when

> > > preparing for

> > > > surgery. I too am doing a lot of weight lifting. When I

> decided

> > > the only way

> > > > I could lose weight was WLS, I knew and even more believe

today

> > > that WLS is

> > > > only a tool, not a cure! A total commitment to a change in

> life

> > > style

> > > > ranging from diet, exercise, social,....you name it, what ever

> > > needs to be

> > > > changed so that I can be healthy.

> > > >

> > > > As a Christian, I believe my body is the temple for the Holy

> > Spirit

> > > and God

> > > > reaches out to others, both believers and nonbelievers,

through

> > us.

> > > I could

> > > > no longer do the things that I believe God purposed in my life

> > due

> > > to health

> > > > problems resulting from my obesity. As a Christian, it has

> been

> > > regretful

> > > > feeling knowing that I could not fully complete my purpose in

> > life.

> > > God

> > > > forgives, but He also can perform the miraculous.

> > > >

> > > > WLS with Dr. Rutledge has been miraculous! I praise God each

> day

> > > for Dr. R.

> > > > and his commitment to the obese.

> > > >

> > > > I look forward to reading about your progress.

> > > >

> > > > Debra Washburn, RN, Tulsa

> > > > surgery 03/14/01 at 320/200 and dropping!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Well said, !!!!

Plkease don't forget Cat, my lifepartner. She has had nightly BILE

reflux for about 3 years, starting 6 months after her RNY. She is

living proof that the RNY can cause that reflux as well. No surgical

procedure is exempt. Also, allow me to point out, that she is not

losing any further and is fighting regain. (She's still 150 pounds

away from her " preferred weight. " A BMI of 52 still!!!!)

Me, on the other hand... I've had the MGB almost a year ago, have lost

about 120 pounds and am only about 30 pounds from, " goal, " and have no

bile reflux or other side effects whatsoever.

Food for thought;

Vancouver Jenn, making more salsa and still moving bit by bit

Viligidiot@a... wrote:

> Hello all,

>

> I see a few fallacies running around the board. I know they are

> unintentional, and I'm thrilled we are having a group discussion

without

> fighting.

>

> The one that bothers me is that only the MGB can cause, or is

causing in

> GREAT numbers, bile reflux. That is an untruth, and it needs to

stop. There

> are hundreds of thousands of people that NEVER had any WLS that have

bile

> reflux. I looked it up and was shocked to know that! And RNY

patients DOOO

> have a higher rate of BR then anyone seems to be admitting. We have

living

> proof in Cat that other WLS patients ALSO experience it. in

Mn shared

> about the wonderful info from the Mayo Clinic just this last week

that shows

> that this is as common in RNY patients and VBG patients as in us.

We are

> just the ones getting the scopes early because we are warned. They

> unfortunately are not.

>

> I spoke with Dr. Quattlebaum Monday morning about this subject. He

said that

> all WLS patients have a 1-2 % chance of mild bile reflux. He said

us MGBers

> might have more a 2% chance than an RNY patient, but that the

marginal

> difference is just that...marginal. I believe him.

>

> As far as the lap RNY having the exact rate of success as the MGB

and less

> risks, I disagree. Maybe post op down the road that is true, but

the risks

> of the lap RNY complication rate is much higher than the MGB, sorry

to say.

> In fact, at one of the university med. centers here, they just lost

their

> tenth lap RNY patient. This is a very difficult procedure and

should only be

> practiced by the best. Unfortunately, not everyone does their

research and

> not all surgeons are willing to admit they do not have the expertise

they

> pretend to have.

>

> I had lap gallbladder surgery that turned into an operation of OVER

8 hours

> and had many health problems afterwards. I wouldn't want to risk

having an

> unskilled lap guy in me again!

>

> I have NO PROBLEM with any WLS any thinking adult chooses. Everyone

has to

> choose for themselves. But the real reality is that we all take our

risks.

> For those who felt uniformed, I'm sorry about that, truly I am. I

knew the

> risks and took them. If I have bile reflux, I will have it treated.

I

> CERTAINLY and WITHOUT A DOUBT had many health problems...not a

maybe, but HAD

> them. They have been either eleviated or lessened to a minor

problem. That

> is a reality of the here and now. I will deal with tomorrow as it

comes.

>

> I hope I do not ever have to deal with bile reflux. Odds are, I

won't. BUT

> if I do, then I do. Sorry to sound so non-chalant about it, but I

had enough

> health problems to deal with in my daily life that medicating

another

> problem, and usually this CAN be dealt with with medication, except

in

> severe cases, is something I am willing to do if need be.

>

> Best to all of you.

> in Ark

> 3-08

> 322-232

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jon,

very well put. I totally concurr (sp?).

My best,

Vancouver Jenn... moving to Portland, OR... anyone wanna help? LOL

jsb@j... wrote:

> Amen, sister!

>

> By the time I had my operation, She Who Must Not Be Named had raised

> the bile issue, so I was duly warned. After consulting with doctors

> I trust, I decided that the speculative risk of BR in the future, or

> of stomach cancer 10-15 yrs down the road (an extremely speculative

> risk), was far less than the near-certain short-term health problems

> I would encounter if I did not get the operation. (As my insurance

> wouldn't cover any WLS, the choice for me was MGB or nothing -- RNY

> was out of my price range).

>

> I accepted the fact that the price for running these risks is to

take

> care of myself, have regular exams and blood tests, a yearly

> endoscopy and, if corrective measures become necessary, take them.

> As says, most of these conditions -- including BR -- can be

> corrected if detected early (except in extreme cases). So vigilance

> is called for.

>

> So far I've been lucky. My health has improved greatly (empirically

> verified by my PCP) and I've suffered no significant side effects.

I

> hope that, had I crapped out, I would still think my decision

process

> was sound despite the bad luck.

>

> All the courses of action or inaction have risks. We each have

> different risk tolerances. ly, the lack of a track record was

> the biggest risk in my view; if I had the money, I probably would

> have done an RNY because of this risk, but not because of the risk

of

> BR or stomach cancer. But I didn't have the dough, so my choices

> boiled down to MGB, doing nothing, or starting another demoralizing

> yo-yo diet -- doomed to failure from the start.

>

> But my circumstances, financial and otherwise, and my values and my

> risk tolerances are not the same as those of others. This is why

> I've never advocated the MGB as THE solution, or as superior to

other

> solutions. All I've ever done is explain how I came to make my

> decision.

>

> Yours in Allah,

>

> Jon in Tuscaloosa

> MGB 11/22/00

> 263/171/150

>

>

> > Hello all,

> >

> > I see a few fallacies running around the board. I know they are

> > unintentional, and I'm thrilled we are having a group discussion

> without

> > fighting.

> >

> > The one that bothers me is that only the MGB can cause, or is

> causing in

> > GREAT numbers, bile reflux. That is an untruth, and it needs to

> stop. There

> > are hundreds of thousands of people that NEVER had any WLS that

> have bile

> > reflux. I looked it up and was shocked to know that! And RNY

> patients DOOO

> > have a higher rate of BR then anyone seems to be admitting. We

> have living

> > proof in Cat that other WLS patients ALSO experience it. in

> Mn shared

> > about the wonderful info from the Mayo Clinic just this last week

> that shows

> > that this is as common in RNY patients and VBG patients as in us.

> We are

> > just the ones getting the scopes early because we are warned.

They

> > unfortunately are not.

> >

> > I spoke with Dr. Quattlebaum Monday morning about this subject.

He

> said that

> > all WLS patients have a 1-2 % chance of mild bile reflux. He said

> us MGBers

> > might have more a 2% chance than an RNY patient, but that the

> marginal

> > difference is just that...marginal. I believe him.

> >

> > As far as the lap RNY having the exact rate of success as the MGB

> and less

> > risks, I disagree. Maybe post op down the road that is true, but

> the risks

> > of the lap RNY complication rate is much higher than the MGB,

sorry

> to say.

> > In fact, at one of the university med. centers here, they just

lost

> their

> > tenth lap RNY patient. This is a very difficult procedure and

> should only be

> > practiced by the best. Unfortunately, not everyone does their

> research and

> > not all surgeons are willing to admit they do not have the

> expertise they

> > pretend to have.

> >

> > I had lap gallbladder surgery that turned into an operation of

> OVER 8 hours

> > and had many health problems afterwards. I wouldn't want to risk

> having an

> > unskilled lap guy in me again!

> >

> > I have NO PROBLEM with any WLS any thinking adult chooses.

> Everyone has to

> > choose for themselves. But the real reality is that we all take

> our risks.

> > For those who felt uniformed, I'm sorry about that, truly I am. I

> knew the

> > risks and took them. If I have bile reflux, I will have it

> treated. I

> > CERTAINLY and WITHOUT A DOUBT had many health problems...not a

> maybe, but HAD

> > them. They have been either eleviated or lessened to a minor

> problem. That

> > is a reality of the here and now. I will deal with tomorrow as it

> comes.

> >

> > I hope I do not ever have to deal with bile reflux. Odds are, I

> won't. BUT

> > if I do, then I do. Sorry to sound so non-chalant about it, but I

> had enough

> > health problems to deal with in my daily life that medicating

> another

> > problem, and usually this CAN be dealt with with medication,

> except in

> > severe cases, is something I am willing to do if need be.

> >

> > Best to all of you.

> > in Ark

> > 3-08

> > 322-232

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

YES! Exactly -- to be aware that we have choices. Easier said than

done with all the mystery that has surrounded flatback until

relatively recently.

Of course I too was told I was fixed at age 13. And then when I

turned out not to be fixed after all at age 37 and had another fusion

and got my shiny new Harrington rod -- well, then, I was REALLY

fixed. And " fixed " good, I might add. (That was a weak attempt at

humor -- bad humor, I admit. But hey, I'm getting kinda close to

surgery, guys, so please cut me some slack!)

Oh well, maybe one of these years they'll get it right? :-)

. . . . to be aware you have

> choices. I was told I was fixed. So you can imagine how 'normal' I

was being

> in the meantime wearing away my unfused discs.. ugh...... no one

answer is

> never the correct one. It is always what you do with the knowledge

you have

> gained.....

[Guest guest]

For the most part, we do, Beth. But sometimes we express the wrong way and others get rattled. I haven't always said what is on my mind because I figure things just might turn on their own without my adding to the fire. Besides, I have a blog for that. ; )Beth <dksunglsses@...> wrote: I am getting sick and tired of all of this trash. I don't understand why people can't follow a few simple rules. I don't understand why people have to trash each other. I am sick and tired of the way you people treat each other, how about a little respect. Dont we all get enough of this treatment out in the real world. Can't we be kind and supportive.The forum I came into and came to love was a kind suportive forum where people followed the rules because they wanted to. They wanted the

place to be a nice home away from the rest of the cruel world. I DON'T LIKE WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE!!!I am tired of the mud slinging I am tired of the disrespect to each other and I am tired of people skating around rules, and not caring about anyone but them selves and there own oppinions. How about showing some care and respect for someone else for a change. How about spending a couple of minutes in someone elses shoes.BethIf you love something, set it free! So it is with books. See what I mean atwww.bookcrossing.com/friend/nheckoblogcritics.orghttp://notesfromnancy.blogspot.com

Heckofreelance proofreadernancygailus@...

How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

This group is more about chatting among a few select than it is about anything

else. This, as many of my other posts, will not get posted.

Nicki

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

I have posts that don't get printed either. I don't know why that is. We are not

supposed to

be moderated (controlled), but I sometimes wonder. Also, I have found list

posts from time

to time in my bulk folder, so that has to the fault of .

Roni

Nicki Gialdini <g.nicki@...> wrote:

This group is more about chatting among a few select than it is about

anything else. This, as many of my other posts, will not get posted.

Nicki

__________________________________________________________

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs