TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

May 6, 2008

, I can fully appreciate your problem as I am experiencing the

same thing. I was diagnosed around the same time as you were, asked

for Armout My THS shows 1.26, but I am still symptomatic. My main

times of distress are during the night. Wake up every 1.5-2 hrs,

feeling anxious, going crazy, etc. My dr has upped my armour thyroid

again, to 120 so I am going to have to make sure I don't go hyper. It

is so frustrating, and family is not very understanding. I have tried

Rx sleeping pills, dramamine, xanax, still wake up every 1.5-2 hours.

THis is maddening. One of the things I do, in the night, is quote

scriptures. THis helps somewhat and helps me to refocus. Take care.

>

> I was diagnosed with hypo on March 7, with TSH of 4.83 (0.40--4.0)

and Free T-4 of 1.29

> (0.8--1.9). My internist put me on levothyroxine 50mcg (which I

had changed two weeks

> later to Levoxyl, and then my endo increased to 75 mcg). I had a

follow-up blood draw

> for TSH and T-4 a week ago, and have now been treated for nearly

two months.

>

> The TSH last week was 1.01 (0.40--4.0)....and the T-4 was 8.46

(4.50--12.50)....The

> early March and late

> April T-4s seem to have been free and total T-4 tests, respectively-

-for whatever

> reasons--but the results

> are in the mid-range (presumably OK) for both.

>

> I don't know if this is too soon to expect symptom improvements,

especially at what

> seems to me a low dose

> (even for a 61-year-old male?). But with this dramatic

an " improvement " in TSH, where

> I'm getting close to hyperthyroidism, I'm getting rather worried.

I've had no

> improvement I can sense in symptoms, and some seem even worse--

fatigue, memory,

> hypersomnia (sleeping long hours), particularly, though the whole

list is rather

> longer. (I also have Type II diabetes, sleep apnea, low

testosterone, clinical

> depression, and obesity, many or most of which, I suspect, go back

to one or another

> hormone problem.) At times I have what could be hyper symptoms

mixed with the ongoing

> hypo symptoms, if that is possible...

>

> I have a hunch about why my symptoms aren't improving with the TSH,

but would like to

> hear some likely expla- nation(s) from some of you with a lot more

knowledge and

> experience.

>

> Many thanks,

>

______________________________________________________________________

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> Be a better friend, newshound, and

> know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

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>

May 6, 2008

Oh ok, I do still believe though that the doctors get kick backs for

prescribing certain meds. I've actually heard of this happening on one of those

shows like 60 minutes and my neighbors Mom works for a doctor's office that does

this.

In a message dated 5/6/2008 5:20:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

deifspirit@... writes:

it has to do with a quality assurance problem- not a conspiracy. forrest

pharm has nothing to gain by denying armour. they are just backed up right now

and won't be able to send it out until next month.

From: tyblossom@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:59 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

I worry that pharmacies and doctors are in with the drug companies to only

carry certain things.

In a message dated 5/6/2008 3:52:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

nelsonck@... writes:

I hope you can get it. I just called my pharmacist and he is having

trouble getting anything except the 1 and 1-1/2 grain tablets. Is

anyone else still having problems obtaining Armour? He was supposed

to get other doses May 5th, now it is May 19th. I also asked him if

he can get Naturethroid and he could not find it even listed. Didn't

even know what it was. Not encouraging.

Venizia

> >

> > Is Armour better than Levothyroxine or Levoxyl? I know that Armour

> is natural.....

> >

>

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May 6, 2008

I would keep slowly increasing the dose and not worry about the

TSH,it may go very low and not be an indication of hyper. If your

doctor is not testing the Free T4 and Free T3, you need a more

modern doctor.

If you have hyper symptoms now, it may be adrenal imbalance. I

would suspect this with diabetes, as the adrenals regulate glucose

utilization. Also can interfer with thyroid hormones.

Interestingly, there are some shrinks who are giving T3 for

depression. If your Free T3 doesn't rise to the top of range with

Levoxyl, you may want to try a combo T4/T3 med, such as Thyrolar

or Armour.

Marla

>

> > There are 12 messages in this issue.

> >

>

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May 6, 2008

it has to do with a quality assurance problem- not a conspiracy. forrest pharm

has nothing to gain by denying armour. they are just backed up right now and

won't be able to send it out until next month.

From: tyblossom@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:59 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

I worry that pharmacies and doctors are in with the drug companies to only

carry certain things.

In a message dated 5/6/2008 3:52:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

nelsonck@... writes:

I hope you can get it. I just called my pharmacist and he is having

trouble getting anything except the 1 and 1-1/2 grain tablets. Is

anyone else still having problems obtaining Armour? He was supposed

to get other doses May 5th, now it is May 19th. I also asked him if

he can get Naturethroid and he could not find it even listed. Didn't

even know what it was. Not encouraging.

Venizia

> >

> > Is Armour better than Levothyroxine or Levoxyl? I know that Armour

> is natural.....

> >

>

------------------------------------

May 6, 2008

I can only get one grain Armour tabs now (I take 4 grains a day). Pharmacist

said this might stay like this until the fall.

Gracia

I hope you can get it. I just called my pharmacist and he is having

trouble getting anything except the 1 and 1-1/2 grain tablets. Is

anyone else still having problems obtaining Armour? He was supposed

to get other doses May 5th, now it is May 19th. I also asked him if

he can get Naturethroid and he could not find it even listed. Didn't

even know what it was. Not encouraging.

Venizia

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May 6, 2008

me too--my teeth are so wonderfully strong and thicker now. they used to be

small and see through. magnesium oil helps too.

Gracia

I truly believe the calcitonin in Armour is very beneficial!

cw

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May 6, 2008

Armour isn't synthetic t4 only. Investigate for yourself at http://www

stopthethyroidmadess.Com

It replace all the hormones your own thyroid produces or is suppose to

produce.

cw

-- TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

I was diagnosed with hypo on March 7, with TSH of 4.83 (0.40--4.0) and Free

T-4 of 1.29

(0.8--1.9). My internist put me on levothyroxine 50mcg (which I had changed

two weeks

later to Levoxyl, and then my endo increased to 75 mcg). I had a follow-up

blood draw

for TSH and T-4 a week ago, and have now been treated for nearly two months.

The TSH last week was 1.01 (0.40--4.0)....and the T-4 was 8.46 (4.50--12.50)

.....The

early March and late

April T-4s seem to have been free and total T-4 tests, respectively--for

whatever

reasons--but the results

are in the mid-range (presumably OK) for both.

I don't know if this is too soon to expect symptom improvements, especially

at what

seems to me a low dose

(even for a 61-year-old male?). But with this dramatic an " improvement " in

TSH, where

I'm getting close to hyperthyroidism, I'm getting rather worried. I've had

no

improvement I can sense in symptoms, and some seem even worse--fatigue,

memory,

hypersomnia (sleeping long hours), particularly, though the whole list is

rather

longer. (I also have Type II diabetes, sleep apnea, low testosterone,

clinical

depression, and obesity, many or most of which, I suspect, go back to one or

another

hormone problem.) At times I have what could be hyper symptoms mixed with

the ongoing

hypo symptoms, if that is possible...

I have a hunch about why my symptoms aren't improving with the TSH, but

would like to

hear some likely expla- nation(s) from some of you with a lot more knowledge

and

experience.

Many thanks,

(Cross-posted to one other group.)

--- hypothyroidism wrote:

> There are 12 messages in this issue.

>

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May 7, 2008

Crystal,

You quoted me quoting:

>

>> One interesting piece of

>> Evidence to support this statement is that humans with chronically

>> Increased (medullary thyroid cancer) or decreased (surgical removal of

>> The thyroid gland) levels of calcitonin in blood usually do not show

>> Alterations from normal in serum calcium concentration

>

> Do you think this is because the other organs pick up the slack?

Not really. It means calcium levels are strongly controlled by another feedback

loop (probably in the parathyroid) in humans, while calcitonin is dominant in

birds and reptiles. If other organs were picking up the slack, calcitonin levels

would be maintained near normal levels. Other organs do attempt to replace what

is lost when the thyroid gland goes, so the result is a reduction in calcitonin,

rather than having it disappear, as happens with thyroxines.

The confusion came from the early tests in animals. Some people jumped to the

conclusion that calcitonin must also be dominant in regulating calcium in

humans, but later investigations showed it to be more of a backup system. That

means we can use calcitonin to reduce calcium loss when whatever the parathyroid

gland does fails (e.g. Paget's disease), but it will have minimal effect

otherwise.

That's why I am doubtful that the small additional contribution of calcitonin in

Armour makes any real difference, even though we do have receptors for it in the

brain. If there is a benefit, I expect it is from the T3, which you don't get

with T4 only medication.

Chuck

May 7, 2008

Well maybe I should have said it replaces each of the hormones your thyroid

makes. Way to be technical.

cw

-- Re: TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

Crystal,

You wrote:

>

> Armour isn't synthetic t4 only. Investigate for yourself at http://www

> stopthethyroidmadess.Com

> It replace all the hormones your own thyroid produces or is suppose to

> produce.

Armour replaces SOME of the T3 your thyroid produces, it but still relies on

conversion of the T4 into T3 in your own body. The ratio of T4 to T3 in

Armour is 4.22:1 . In pigs and humans, the ratio is lower than this, about

4:1 . Obviously you lose some of the T3 in processing and desiccating. When

you ingest it, a larger fraction of the T4 makes it into your system than T3

So a source which already has less T3 than your thyroid produces, much less

than you have in your own blood, and less than even the pig had, loses even

more T3 by being eaten.

That means that Armour most certainly does NOT replace all of your T3

production. The fact that it replaces some of it, can still be beneficial to

some people, who do not convert T4 to T3 very effectively.

However, even that benefit has been brought into question by two recent

studies, that demonstrate that it does not apply to most hypoT people:

http://thyroid.about

com/b/2003/10/03/combination-hormone-therapy-does-not-benefit-hypothyroid-pat

ents-says-new-study.htm

Chuck

May 7, 2008

Yeah that's what I thought (snicker)

cw

-- TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

Crystal,

You quoted me quoting:

>

>> One interesting piece of

>> Evidence to support this statement is that humans with chronically

>> Increased (medullary thyroid cancer) or decreased (surgical removal of

>> The thyroid gland) levels of calcitonin in blood usually do not show

>> Alterations from normal in serum calcium concentration

>

> Do you think this is because the other organs pick up the slack?

Not really. It means calcium levels are strongly controlled by another

feedback loop (probably in the parathyroid) in humans, while calcitonin is

dominant in birds and reptiles. If other organs were picking up the slack,

calcitonin levels would be maintained near normal levels. Other organs do

attempt to replace what is lost when the thyroid gland goes, so the result

is a reduction in calcitonin, rather than having it disappear, as happens

with thyroxines.

The confusion came from the early tests in animals. Some people jumped to

the conclusion that calcitonin must also be dominant in regulating calcium

in humans, but later investigations showed it to be more of a backup system.

That means we can use calcitonin to reduce calcium loss when whatever the

parathyroid gland does fails (e.g. Paget's disease), but it will have

minimal effect otherwise.

That's why I am doubtful that the small additional contribution of

calcitonin in Armour makes any real difference, even though we do have

receptors for it in the brain. If there is a benefit, I expect it is from

the T3, which you don't get with T4 only medication.

Chuck

May 7, 2008

Crystal,

You wrote:

> Well maybe I should have said it replaces each of the hormones your thyroid

> makes. Way to be technical.

Not technical, just English. " Replaces " means it supplies the same amount as

what was lost. It only replaces them indirectly, at most.

Chuck

May 8, 2008

It is the nature of most scientists to be technically accurate when they

discuss technical and scientific issues. We lay persons may approach

such subjects with a much more relaxed expression method; however, such

expression lends itself to misinterpretation.

>

> Re: TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

>

<hypothyroidism/message/38302;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOXVwNGg\

yBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzgzMDIEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDE5OTIxNA-->

>

> Posted by: " Crystal " sweetnwright@...

>

<mailto:sweetnwright@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20TSH%20way%20down%2FNo%20symptoma\

tic%20relief>

> sweetenloe1 <sweetenloe1>

>

> Wed May 7, 2008 2:13 pm (PDT)

>

> Well maybe I should have said it replaces each of the hormones your

> thyroid

> makes. Way to be technical.

> cw

>

> -- Re: TSH way down/No symptomatic relief

>

> Crystal,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > Armour isn't synthetic t4 only. Investigate for yourself at http://www

> > stopthethyroidmadess.Com

> > It replace all the hormones your own thyroid produces or is suppose to

> > produce.

>

> Armour replaces SOME of the T3 your thyroid produces, it but still

> relies on

> conversion of the T4 into T3 in your own body. The ratio of T4 to T3 in

> Armour is 4.22:1 . In pigs and humans, the ratio is lower than this, about

> 4:1 . Obviously you lose some of the T3 in processing and desiccating.

> When

> you ingest it, a larger fraction of the T4 makes it into your system

> than T3

> So a source which already has less T3 than your thyroid produces, much

> less

> than you have in your own blood, and less than even the pig had, loses

> even

> more T3 by being eaten.

>

> That means that Armour most certainly does NOT replace all of your T3

> production. The fact that it replaces some of it, can still be

> beneficial to

> some people, who do not convert T4 to T3 very effectively.

>

> However, even that benefit has been brought into question by two recent

> studies, that demonstrate that it does not apply to most hypoT people:

>

> http://thyroid.about <http://thyroid.about>

> com/b/2003/10/03/combination-hormone-therapy-does-not-benefit-hypothyroid-pat

> ents-says-new-study.htm

>

> Chuck

May 9, 2008

just want to say that your TSH is too high and you will need more armour. you

are only taking 120 mg or 2 grains which is usually not enough to feel better.

most feel better on between 3-5 grains. the next thing is you won't go hyper T

on 2 grains. but is you feel those symptoms as you adjust to each dose increase,

you might want to take some magnesium [ I take 500-600 mg a day] and get your

adrenals tested to make sure they are working correctly, otherwise your body may

not use the armour and get it into the cells. you can also take iodine

supplements to also ease the " hyper " symptoms as you adjust to the dosing

increasing.

also, never dose to your TSH, it is not even a thyroid hormone, it is released

by the ant. pituitary to get the thyroid to release more hormones but if the

feedback system is wacked out via a diseased thyroid or ant. pituitary gland

then you will screwed result.

Instead, dose by your symptoms and by your free T's and total T's and reverse

T3.

as far as your insomnia, magnesium will also help with sleep.

nancie

From: PMcGall64

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:46 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: TSH way down/No symptomatic relief