Re: I know there was a lot of talk about iodine

[Guest guest]

tyblossom,

You wrote:

>

> I know there was a lot of talk about iodine and it helping with

> hypothyroiditis, and I found this article that seems interesting....

The problem is that the all the issues listed in that article are well

documented to be completely relieved by the RDA, 0.15 mg per day. What

has been argued here are doses in the 50-100 mg range.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

Do you feel most of us get the 0.15mg of iodine a day?

Venizia

> >

> > I know there was a lot of talk about iodine and it helping with

> > hypothyroiditis, and I found this article that seems interesting....

>

> The problem is that the all the issues listed in that article are well

> documented to be completely relieved by the RDA, 0.15 mg per day. What

> has been argued here are doses in the 50-100 mg range.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

look at http://www.fibromyalgiarecovery.com for ppl who use iodine

successfully.

Gracia

I know there was a lot of talk about iodine and it helping with

hypothyroiditis, and I found this article that seems interesting. I've also

got

fibromyalgia. I'm curious, those who have tried the iodine therapy, have any

of you

had fibromyalgia and it's gotten all better? What is the iodine therapy? I

know

it's been said that it can actually hurt you also on this list, but curious

what is thought about it.

_

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10:34 AM

[Guest guest]

" Most people are avoiding salt or using sea salt??? " Really??? You may

have reference to the planet Earth; but it sure as h*!! isn't the US of

A. At least as far as avoiding salt. I'll bet even in Europe the

intake of salt is above optimal. Even in Kazakhstan 94% of the

population get iodine in their salt. If you think otherwise please

provide a reference. Everything I've seen shows that in the US we tend

to get _too much_ salt; we do not " avoid " it...

I've found repeated references on the internet to the fact [?] that 70%

of the population of the world now receives iodized salt. And of the

30% who do not most of them are included in 20 countries: Afghanistan,

Angola, Bangladesh, Bolivia, China, Egypt, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guatemala,

Haiti, India, Indonesia, Niger, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, Senegal,

Sudan, Ukraine, and Vietnam. Not a lot of European countries in that

list [but geography is not my strong subject]. I _have not_ checked

those numbers for accuracy; but they are widely repeated.

Besides, salt isn't the only source of iodine. Where do you get your

information?

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%\

20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:52 pm (PST)

>

>

> this is sooooo wrong. most ppl are avoiding salt or use seasalt. then

> again in Europe iodine is not added to salt. .15mg of iodine is a

> trace amount and will not prevent cancer etc.

> Gracia

>

> Venizia,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > Do you feel most of us get the 0.15mg of iodine a day?

>

> In the U.S., you probably get several times that amount. People in the

> " goiter belt " still get that much if they just buy iodized salt.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

I did not realize that the Great Lakes was part of the goiter belt. I

am from Wisconsin (Lake Michigan) I have 10 relatives with a thyroid

condition. Learn something knew all the time. Interesting.

Venizia

-- In hypothyroidism , Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

>

> Gracia,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > this is sooooo wrong. most ppl are avoiding salt or use seasalt....

>

> The RDA is sufficient to prevent goiter and Iodine Deficiency

cretinism.

> That is very well documented. However, most people in the U.S. still

> get more than the RDA from local foods, without the iodized salt input.

>

> The goiter belt is mainly around the Great Lakes. This was the region

> that iodization was implemented to serve in 1924. This voluntary

> supplementation indeed eliminated goiter and cretinism, but it has also

> been linked to an increase in Hashimoto's and thyroid cancer, not a

> decrease.

>

> In recent years there has been a drop in average iodine excretion in

the

> goiter belt, but this is mainly due to the wide use of non-iodized salt

> in packaged, processed, and fast foods, which currently provide about

> 77% of our salt intake. In spite of that, they still seem to get the

> RDA, just as I said.

>

> Market research shows that less than 1.5% of the salt market in the

U.S.

> is sea salt.

>

> http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/pdf/2008/10/16/press_release_70052.pdf

>

> So, something that you and a few of your friends do, definitely does

not

> translate to " most people, " as you rather consistently seem to think.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

150 mcg is 150 millionths of a gram. There are over 6600 doses of this

size in a single gram; and a gram is less than teaspoon for many

substances [check my math]. There are over 28 grams in a single ounce.

If you were taking a pure substance then 150 mcg would be just a speck.

However, the form of the iodine that is normally taken is IMHO a much

diluted version of iodine having only a small percentage of actual

iodine. Google could give you the actual numbers.

Acne is one of the known side effects of too much iodine IIRC.

Luck,

..

..

>

> Posted by: " tyblossom@... " tyblossom@...

>

<mailto:tyblossom@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%20\

of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> tyblossom <tyblossom>

>

>

> Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:15 am (PST)

>

> How much iodine is 150mcg about? Is it like a teaspoon? I have

> Hashimoto's

> and fibromyalgia and I've been thinking for a while that my FMS is

> actually my

> thyroid or at least a possibility. I got my doctor to prescribe me

> Cytomel,

> which my tests did in fact show that I needed, but I found no help

> from this

> drug at all. She is not in favor of me trying Armour. I remember being

> told

> that iodine would actually hurt me because I had Hashi's. So maybe I

> shouldn't

> try to up my iodine. I don't really eat much salt. I eat a lot of

> whole foods

> where you have to add salt and I don't add salt to food very often. I

> think

> I only add it to eggs.

>

> Thanks for everyone's responses. I'm just trying to figure out what might

> help. On a side note, I bought a sauna and am not noticing any help

> with that

> really although I don't usually have acne ever and all the sudden I've

> been

> breaking out. I've heard it's good for acne, so maybe this really

> helps for that

> bring out toxins in the body.

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/25/2008 8:06:06 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net> writes:

>

> The iodine deficiency discussed in the page you listed refers to those

> who receive less than the RDA of iodine, which is about 150 mcg/day [i

> think]. That's 150 millionths of a gram if my memory and math are

> correct. What some people are taking and recommending on the iodine

> lists is up to 100 grams per day, which is 6600% higher than the RDA.

>

> The RDA is generally sufficient to prevent the typical quoted symptoms

> of iodine insufficiency. 100 grams is many times greater than that

> which has been shown in credible research to cause problems with a small

> percentage of the general population which might result in injury or

> death. And much smaller quantities have been shown to cause Hashimoto's

> attacks [or flare ups of Hashimoto's]

> .

>

> Look at all the evidence you can before you take something that has a

> small chance of killing you. The same people who take several thousand

> percent of the RDA of iodine for hypothyroidism seem to often also need

> to take up to twice the manufacturer's recommendation of Armour [which

> contains both T4 and T3] as well as other chemicals so I wonder what the

> massive doses of iodine actually accomplish from the physiological

> perspective. Most hypothyroid patients take T4 only and do fine;

> although a small percentage do not.

>

> Luck,

>

[Guest guest]

The RDA for salt seems to vary from one to three grams depending upon

the source. Consumption is about 4 to 5 grams in the US.

As for Europe [and much of the world] I believe the numbers have change

dramatically in the past decade or so, so if you're looking at old data

it's out of date. World wide iodized salt is available to about 70% of

the population. Of the 30% which do not have it 20 developing [for the

most part] countries constitute the major portion of those, and none are

AFAIK in Europe. That said, iodine deficiency is much higher in Europe

than it should be given their level of development.

To say that iodine is not added to salt in Europe is somewhat

inaccurate. Some has it and some doesn't.

..

..

> Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@...

>

<mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a\

%20lot%20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> dudescholar <dudescholar>

>

>

> Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:22 am (PST)

>

> Do you know what the per capita iodized salt consumption is in the USA

> by chance?

>

> In our household and all those of the people I know, no one is cutting

> back on sodium. In our household, we buy about one iodized Morton 2.2

> lb container a month and for 6 people that averages out to about 5.5

> grams per day of sodium.

>

> So for every European country, there are no table salt products that

> include iodine?

>

> Steve

>

> Gracia wrote:

> > this is sooooo wrong. most ppl are avoiding salt or use seasalt.

> then again in Europe iodine is not added to salt. .15mg of iodine is a

> trace amount and will not prevent cancer etc.

> > Gracia

[Guest guest]

The RDA is given as low as one gram, depending upon the source. We get

4 to 5 grams per day; so some people may try to limit their intake but

the average does not support the statement that people are avoiding

salt. We need to avoid a heck of a lot more of it than we do IMHO.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " tyblossom@... " tyblossom@...

>

<mailto:tyblossom@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%20\

of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> tyblossom <tyblossom>

>

>

> Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:23 pm (PST)

>

> I'm guessing they meant that in the US at least, that people are told

> salt

> is bad for us and they try to avoid it, but they know salt is in

> everything and

> too much.

[Guest guest]

Steve, I don't know how long you've been around but in case it's just a

short time [i haven't checked] you may have missed that Chuck is a

scientist. His credentials are impressive indeed. You may depend upon

whatever he posits as being in line with mainstream science and well

supported.

Gracia is IMHO good hearted and means well but she operates from a world

view drastically removed from that of Chuck. Yet they seem to get along

well and remain civil and engage in more than a bit of jest from time to

time. Science and scientific facts mean nothing to Gracia and she does

not operate within the guidelines of the scientific method. Nor is

logic her forte. But we're glad to have her here.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@...

>

<mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a\

%20lot%20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> dudescholar <dudescholar>

>

>

> Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:31 pm (PST)

>

> I find Chuck's approach quite rational and he provides some

> substantiation for his present positions rather than hyperbole. I may

> or may not agree with him or agree that the RDA is anywhere near optimum

> in most cases, but that's a different point. I appreciate his effort to

> express himself with grammatical conscioniousessness

> .

>

> Look up the definition of " ashamed " . I doubt Chuck or anyone who

> approaches this issue rationally will feel socially stigmatized to the

> point of shame. On the other hand, not addressing the pertinent points

> and running from the discussion by attack the messenger is not to your

> credit. Address Chuck's message paragraph by paragraph and looking at

> what the REAL facts are, not what you WISH them to be.

>

> Steve

[Guest guest]

If you read Brownstein's book be aware that credible research says his

advice may kill you.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%\

20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:18 am (PST)

>

>

> then you should read Brownstein's book on iodine

> http://www.drbrownstein.com <http://www.drbrownstein.com>

> he treats hashis with iodine and explains why in the book. is

> allopathic medicine working for you???

> Gracia

>

> That was a very interesting article, but concerned about trying to

> take any

> iodine because I have Hashi's.

[Guest guest]

And what does Optimox sell? Not iodine, is it? Come on, Gracia; how

dependable is any " research " [sales pitch] on a site selling a

product...Especially those selling a product with no benefits proven by

credible medical research for the quantity and use they're promoting.

To expect to find objective information on the Optimox site about iodine

[which they want to sell you] is like expecting to find information in

any product's sales brochures that say why you really should not use

that product. If you believe sales brochures are designed to be fair

and objective you probably still believe in the tooth fairy.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%\

20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:21 am (PST)

>

>

> you would need to use iodine the right way b/c it is powerful

> medicine. you do not want to take " some " but rather you need to take

> enough. look at the research on http://www.optimox.com

> <http://www.optimox.com>

[Guest guest]

, have you read the STTM article about Hashi's?

If not, I really recommend you read it. Here's the web address:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/hashimotos/

From what you've written it does sound like you are symptomatic, and

perhaps you are not on an effective enough type of thyroid

replacement. Since you have Hashi's, the goal would be to fully

replace all the thyroid hormones so the thyroid does not have to

produce any on it's own, which should stop antibodies from attacking

it. Synthetic T4 and synthetic T3 drugs simply do not contain all the

thyroid hormones, so it would be impossible to use them to " fully "

replace " all " the thyroid hormones, no matter how much of those 2

drugs are taken. Desiccated (porcine) thyroid (brand names include

Armour, Naturethroid, Westhroid, Thyroid-S, etc) does contain all the

thyroid hormones since it is actually made from thyroid glands. It's

also quite important to " properly " test/treat adrenals. Here are some

adrenal articles that are important to read:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-faq

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/aldosterone

http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html

If you want to know more about iodine/iodide, please speak with those

that actually use it rather than those who do not. There is an iodine

group online, and here is the address:

iodine

I wrote in this group a little about Hashi's and iodine/iodide in

message #42527:

" I don't know how many Hashi's people Gracia knows who are also taking

Iodoral or Lugol's, but I sure do know a whole passle. The things

they are doing that is working seem to be " properly " addressing

adrenals (both cortisol and aldosterone if needed), supplementing any

mineral/vit deficiencies, and taking measures to ensure (via salt

push and/or grams of vit c) any detox symptoms are minimal (detoxing

bromide can be interesting).

" So far, from what I've seen, Iodoral and Lugol's appear to be helping

rather than harming. [...] My

co-moderator on the thyroidless group has Hashi's and is on Iodoral

and doing very well.

" But here's one thing I have to stress, everyone that considers taking

Iodoral or Lugol's needs to do the same...it's not just those with

antibodies. The 2 biggest, and most common, issues I hear about all

the time are directly related to not 'properly' addressing any

adrenal issues and not 'properly' addressing detoxing of bromide. "

Sam

>

> Hi Gracia,

>

> Can you tell me what problems you had prior to taking

> iodine and what have been relieved if any?

>

> I'm in a lot of pain, have weight gain that I wake up

> every morning trying to lose, Also, have the dry skin

> once winter hits that's really bad. Other thyroid things

> are also a problem, but those are the worst.

>

> My thyroid is normal after the dose I'm taking. I already

> tried taking Cytomel for about 6 months and didn't notice

> anything. I did stop taking this because it was costing me

> 40 a month, but probably will go back on it once our

> insurance is changed.

>

> I'm really worried about trying too much iodine though,

> because I am mainly reading that it's not what the problem

> is for hypothyroid when it's Hashi's.

>

>

>

=====

> In a message dated 11/27/2008 8:12:20 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> circe@... writes:

>

>

> no, LOL I do not sell iodine. I buy Iodoral from

> http://www.breastcancerchoices.org

> there are not many sources for accurate info on iodine.

> http://www.drbrownstein.com has a good iodine book. there is an

iodine

> group on . I think I know a lot about it

> Gracia

=====

> Thank you for the information. I'm going to see what I can learn

about

> Hashi's and Iodine. I'm just curious, but do you sell iodine?

>

>

[Guest guest]

The purpose of advertising is to sell a product. Whether it is Optimox,

Merck or GM I think you're not going to find a full and objective

presentation of all facts in the advertisement. The contraindications

for many medicines are printed on an insert that probably few people

read. My latest medication has repeated warnings of side effects up to

and including death from it's use; but how many actually read them? If

they are included in the advertisement it is usually done in such a

manner that it will not be the easiest thing in the ad to find; quite

the opposite.

I don't say it's bad that Optimox has formulated Lugols in a pill. I'm

just saying you cannot expect objectivity from anyone trying to sell you

something. That alone makes the iodine docs suspect in their promotion

of a product from a company in which one or more of them has a huge

financially stake. To me at least.

Info/research that is " spot on " should be published so we can all

benefit from it. For it to be published in a credible venue it has to

meet professional standards. I'm not aware of any in which the iodine

docs have met these standards. And if it's accurate that's truly a shame.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%\

20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:31 pm (PST)

>

>

> ???? where should we get iodine from then? (s)Merck? Optimox has

> formulated Lugols in a pill--why is that bad? all the info/research

> there is spot on.

> gracia

>

> And what does Optimox sell? Not iodine, is it? Come on, Gracia; how

> dependable is any " research " [sales pitch] on a site selling a

> product...Especiall

> y those selling a product with no benefits proven by

> credible medical research for the quantity and use they're promoting.

>

> To expect to find objective information on the Optimox site about iodine

> [which they want to sell you] is like expecting to find information in

> any product's sales brochures that say why you really should not use

> that product. If you believe sales brochures are designed to be fair

> and objective you probably still believe in the tooth fairy.

>

>

[Guest guest]

One of them owns Optimox and he's not interested in selling you its

products??? Strange...

I would think that if they are passionate about iodine and trust its use

they would do at least a small credible study with credible methodology

and publish same in a peer reviewed journal. Whatever your personal

beliefs there are millions of people who regard them highly.

OTOH if they suspect more than a little that correctly administered

research would show a result about the same as placebo or chance then I

would expect them to do exactly what they're doing now.

I would LOVE to see some credible research supporting the effacy of a

substance so cheap and readily available as iodine in fighting cancer.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%\

20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:56 pm (PST)

>

>

> iodine docs are not promoting Iodoral---they are promoting

> iodine/iodide. there is no marketing involved. they are passionate

> about changing the health care system. They take iodine and know what

> it does.

> Gracia

>

> Gracia

> The purpose of advertising is to sell a product. Whether it is Optimox,

> Merck or GM I think you're not going to find a full and objective

> presentation of all facts in the advertisement. The contraindications

> for many medicines are printed on an insert that probably few people

> read. My latest medication has repeated warnings of side effects up to

> and including death from it's use; but how many actually read them? If

> they are included in the advertisement it is usually done in such a

> manner that it will not be the easiest thing in the ad to find; quite

> the opposite.

>

> I don't say it's bad that Optimox has formulated Lugols in a pill. I'm

> just saying you cannot expect objectivity from anyone trying to sell you

> something. That alone makes the iodine docs suspect in their promotion

> of a product from a company in which one or more of them has a huge

> financially stake. To me at least.

>

> Info/research that is " spot on " should be published so we can all

> benefit from it. For it to be published in a credible venue it has to

> meet professional standards. I'm not aware of any in which the iodine

> docs have met these standards. And if it's accurate that's truly a shame.

>

>

> .

[Guest guest]

My apologies if I have misrepresented your position. I was going by

your rejection of scientific facts and peer reviewed literature by Chuck

as much as anything else I guess. He has repeated a number of well

established facts and credible literature on a number of issues which

you have either ignored or outright contradicted.

In addition your entire approach to the use of iodine is contrary to

the best science we have. You frequently refer to physicians who do not

follow your totally unscientific medical ideas as " stupid " and

" uneducated " when they are following the best medical science that we

have. You apparently think that " one size fits all " in hypothyroid

treatment.

Again, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you. But frankly I fail to see

much appreciation for the scientific method or the enormous

accomplishments of science in your posts. It appears you would prefer

the posits of the iodine docs to any credible scientific research. That

does not really display much appreciation of or familiarity with the

true nature of science.

I'm both sorry that you were ill and ill served, as well as pleased that

you're healthy now. I'm trying to find some reasonable theory [or even

speculation] as to how massive doses of iodine should benefit anyone

with sufficient T3 and T4 in the battle with hyperthyroidism; so far

without success.

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%\

20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Mon Dec 1, 2008 6:32 am (PST)

>

>

> you are quite wrong in your last assertions. science and

> scientific fact are very important to me. But I have come to realize

> that a lot of facts are actually myths that would have killed me by

> now if I had believed them.

> actually logic is my forte. my honors thesis in college was on logical

> positvism--Wittgens

> tein's Tractatus.

> I was very hypothyroid my whole life and then doc cut out half of my

> thyroid gland b/c of goiter--left untreated for 30 years b/c of

> " science " I guess.

> Gracia

>

> Steve, I don't know how long you've been around but in case it's just a

> short time [i haven't checked] you may have missed that Chuck is a

> scientist. His credentials are impressive indeed. You may depend upon

> whatever he posits as being in line with mainstream science and well

> supported.

>

> Gracia is IMHO good hearted and means well but she operates from a world

> view drastically removed from that of Chuck. Yet they seem to get along

> well and remain civil and engage in more than a bit of jest from time to

> time. Science and scientific facts mean nothing to Gracia and she does

> not operate within the guidelines of the scientific method. Nor is

> logic her forte. But we're glad to have her here.

>

>

> .

> .

>

[Guest guest]

If you follow Chuck's posts at all you will find he does not believe

that TSH is the be-all and end-all of hypothyroidism diagnosis. Chuck's

approach generally IMHO is evidence based, with rather rigorous

guidelines for the validity of the evidence.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@...

>

<mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a\

%20lot%20of%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> dudescholar <dudescholar>

>

>

> Tue Dec 2, 2008 9:34 pm (PST)

>

> Hi ,

>

> While I appreciate Chuck's particular approach to the problem, and such

> an approach in some ways is easier to reason with as opposed to random

> irrational in inconsistent assertion coming from other sources, it tends

> to be, for lack of a better description, left brained with little

> regards for right brained thinking. In other words, it's an approach

> from one direction only with the tendency to generously discount other

> approaches.

>

> Using TSH to dose any form of thyroid medication with wanton disregard

> to the patients subjective experiences, physical symptoms, and

> measurable information like body temperature, is the current

> " scientific " approach.

[Guest guest]

Yes ...I know and I've talked to him about that (Thanksgiving day

again to be precise)...remember I was 1027 TSH when I was 'finally'

diagnosed...praying for death every day to escape my body!

>

> Please acquaint your brother with myxedema coma. If his body produces

> no T4 that is his future. It's a very unpleasant and drawn-out death.

>

>

> .

> .

>

> >

> > Posted by: " cindy.seeley " cindy.seeley@...

> >

<mailto:cindy.seeley@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20I%20know%20there%20was%20a%20lot%20o\

f%20talk%20about%20iodine>

> > cindy.seeley <cindy.seeley>

> >

> >

> > Wed Dec 3, 2008 6:53 pm (PST)

> >

> > I only wish that I could say the same Chuck! None of my hypoT

> > diagnosed family see the same doctor, yet EVERY one of us is treated

> > by the 'data'...and we all remain severely symptomatic. My brother is

> > so fed up that he's decided not to even bother taking his medication

> > any more. He's only in his 30s and giving up, because as he says, " It

> > doesn't do any good anyway, so why bother?! "

>