Re: MS-Avoid glutamine supplement: has a funny smell to it

[Guest guest]

This has a funny smell to it...it reminds me of of rotten soy or rancid fish

oil. The one sentence here that says more to me than any other is this one:

" After reviewing the literature, I am unconvinced that high-dose oral glutamine

supplementation is toxic to neurons in healthy persons. "

The association between glutamine and glutamate is old and has been discussed

for decades. No doubt about it, glutamine supplementation *is* potentially

unwise but this confusion has been talked about over and over for a very long

time.

Note that in the posted abstract, no figures were posted. No ratios of

glutamine consumption to glutamate measurement, no quantities of glutamine, no

definition of what even constitutes " high dose " . What's the benchmark for

" healthy " here, anyhow?

This is really a statement of the painfully obvious...high-dose ANYTHING is

toxic to a *healthy* person...seen the latest info on high-dose drinking water?

Oof...it's enough to make you want to go on a water fast!

No criticism intended, Joan...none. But when I see reports like this that I can

tell at a glance are grossly unbalanced I feel compelled to say something.

I really wish I had some URLs I could post here but I haven't been able to

uncover them using the keywords that came immediately to mind. All I will say

is that I remember this same controversy emerging more than 30 years ago when a

Dr. discussed glutamine for alcoholic and sugar craving

management and was roundly criticized by those in autism and

diabetes/hypoglycemia research for promoting a potentially damaging substance.

Critics of didn't account for the possibility of alcoholics being

deficient in capacity to make or utilize glutamate in the brain, or of the

effects ' other recommendations might have on preventing or minimizing

any harmful effects of glutamate to neuronal tissues. But at the same time,

didn't exactly go as far as one might have wished to differentiate

between recovering alcoholics who can benefit from glutamine and those who might

be adversely affected.

Typically when you're talking supplementation with glutamine, you're talking of

doses less than two grams per day, even taken with food. Bodybuilders take many

times that much for potential benefits in their particular hobby, and the

differentiation needs to be made between these dramatic dose ranges and the

typical therapeutic dose ranges.

These kinds of things come up all the time.

" Rotten soy " ? Remember not so long ago when the cautions came out about soy

because the isoflavones in soy were found to be a contributor to increased

senile dementia in Japan, where soy is a primary protein source? Sadly there

wasn't a lot of discussion of isoflavones as potentially of enormous benefit in

western diets, or of soy in general as a replacement/supplement for animal

proteins.

" Rancid fish oil " ? Twenty years ago, I could find halibut liver oil capsules, a

highly concentrated and very inexpensive form of Vitamin A/Vitamin D supplement,

just about anywhere. Then for several years story after story came out about

harm from vitamin A overload...if it wasn't those " tanning capsules "

(canthaxanthans, which in relatively small doses can actually be highly

*protective* even if they do make you look like you tanned under a red sun), it

was 19th-century artic expeditions wiped out from eating seal, walrus or whale

organs (which are so grotesquely high in A and D that it would certainly have

killed them), or scare stories about retinol-related compounds (related to

vitamin A, used fairly widely for skin conditions such as acne)...and halibut

liver oil slowly became a lot harder to find to the point where for several

years, I knew of just one chain in all of Calgary that carried it in any form.

Not much attention was given to differentiating between *forms* of a

nimal-origin vitamin A, although there WAS a lot of good info. relating to the

potential of overloading when combining *vegetable*-origin A (beta-carotene for

the most part) with animal sources (from fish liver oils, primarily).

This is an area where we can't take any isolated information at face value

because the chances that it applies directly to our particular case are too low

to attract any reasonably-capable gambler. In fact, the medical establishment

has a far poorer record in these kinds of pronouncements than the " new-agers "

and " food faddists " (does anyone still use this term?), but NEITHER side should

be particularly proud of its overall score.

HOWEVER...when you combine this kind of doomsaying with the hype on the other

side of the glutamine question, you can parse out a pretty balanced view, and

make a LOT saner choices about your own individual needs, and about who to trust

for quality information. Yes, glutamine *can* be useful for A, B, and C, but

watch out for 1 and 2 with condition B, and possible 3, mild 4, and annoying 5,

6 and 7 if you have C.

There are a few generalities on which you can rely, though.

First, if you take any kind prescription, you're probably compromising your

metabolism in some way, and you can very often improve the effectiveness of the

prescription - or eliminate the need for it altogether - by finding out what it

takes from you and what you can add to your diet to help mediate this loss.

Second, any single supplement is *likely* to have side effects all by itself.

Metabolic components work together - few are of unique value by themselves - and

boosting the level of substance A in your diet can compromise substances B, C

and D. Discovering the optimal set of supplements for any particular individual

is typically a slow process that continues throughout your life, and involves a

lot of careful thought, careful study, and careful personal observation. But

you typically find of those people who take the time to do this, those who are

glad they went to this effort in investigating supplements and are pleased with

the results typically far outweighs the satisfaction of those who investigated

their prescriptions to the same degree.

It's a minefield out there...

-Cub-

P.S.: Once again, I'm not a doctor, I just bill like one.

At 06:38 AM 5/1/04, you wrote:

>Is Glutamine Supplementation Helpful or Harmful?

>

>

>Dr. Mercola's Comment:

>

>Glutamine is an amino acid that makes up the majority of our skeletal muscle.

There is some controversy over whether oral glutamine supplementation is toxic

or helpful to healthy people. In a

<http://mercola.com/article/surgery/protocol.htm>past article, Dr.

Crayhon expressed the view of many natural medicine experts, " After reviewing

the literature, I am unconvinced that high-dose oral glutamine supplementation

is toxic to neurons in healthy persons. "

>

>However, Dr. Blaylock, a board-certified neurosurgeon and author of the

highly recommended

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0929173252/optimalwellnessc>Excitotoxins\

: The Taste that Kills wrote in to me with another viewpoint and his response is

below.

>

>

>----------

>By L. Blaylock, M.D.

>Advanced Nutritional Concepts, LLC.

>

>Dr. Crayhon posted

<http://mercola.com/article/surgery/protocol.htm>comments on this site

indicating that I was terribly mistaken in my caution concerning the use of

glutamine and that he had consulted several “cell biologists” who were also

concerned with my statements on glutamine safety. In fact it was stated that I

apparently did not understand that glutamine was not an excitotoxin and was not

converted into an excitotoxin.

>

>Of course, I never stated glutamine was an excitotoxin, but I do state that it

is converted into the excitotoxin glutamate within neurons. Numerous recent

studies as well as

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/039751820X/optimalwellnessc>Siegel’s

Basic Neurochemistry textbook emphatically state that the major source of

glutamate is from glutamine in the brain. Normally, when the brain finishes

using glutamate for chemical communication between brain cells at the synapse

the glutamate is taken up by surrounding glial cells and changed by the enzyme

glutamine synthease into glutamine, where it is stored.

>

>The Problem With Excitotoxins

>

>The glutamine is then transported to the neuron and by the enzyme glutaminase,

it is converted to glutamate--the potential excitotoxin. I say potential because

unless it accumulates outside the brain cell it is harmless.

>

>This is the major source of glutamate within the brain. Excitotoxins are

usually amino acids, such as glutamate and aspartate. These special amino acids

cause particular brain cells to become excessively excited, to the point they

will quickly die. Excitotoxins can also cause a loss of brain synapses and

connecting fibers. Food-borne excitotoxins include such additives as MSG,

aspartame, hydrolyzed protein and soy protein extract.

>

>In two recent studies it was found that the amount of glutamine in the brain

could predict the brain damage seen both in pediatric brain injuries and brain

damage secondary to seizures. Adding large amounts of glutamine to the diet

increases significantly brain levels of glutamine and, hence, glutamate. Another

study found that by adding glutamine to the diet of animals exposed to another

powerful excitotoxin called quinolinic acid, brain cell damage was increased

significantly. Quinolinic acid is known to accumulate in the brain in most cases

of viral brain infection as seen with HIV dementia and viral encephalitis.

>

>Glutamine and Liver Toxicity

>

>Individuals with liver toxicity tend to accumulate ammonia in their blood and

brain. Until recently, it was assumed that it was the ammonia that caused liver

disease-associated brain injury and that glutamine was protective.

>

>Newer studies indicate that actually it is the glutamine that is causing the

brain’s injury. Increasing glutamine in the diet would significantly aggravate

this damage.

>

>Free Radicals in the Brain

>

>Glutamine accumulation has also been found in Alzheimer’s disease, Huntington’s

disease and high levels of brain glutamine have been associated with a worse

prognosis in Lou Gehrig’s disease. Likewise, recent studies have shown that high

brain glutamine levels increase brain levels of free radicals and impair the

ability of brain mitochondria to produce energy. When the brain produces low

energy, excitotoxins, such as glutamate, become even more toxic. It has been

shown that the reason for glutamine toxicity under these conditions is because

it is converted to the excitotoxin--glutamate.

>

>Glutamine and Multiple Sclerosis

>

>Of particular concern is the finding that people with multiple sclerosis have

increased levels of the enzyme glutaminase (the enzyme that converts glutamine

into glutamate) in areas of nerve fiber damage. High levels of glutamine in the

diet would increase glutamate levels near these injured areas magnifying the

damage. It has been shown that excitotoxicity plays a major role in multiple

sclerosis by destroying the cells (oligodendrocytes) that produce myelin.

>

>Glutamine and Pregnant Women

>

>Another area of concern would be pregnant women. Glutamine passes through the

placenta and may actually be concentrated in the baby’s blood, producing very

high levels. Glutamate plays a major role in the development of the baby’s

brain. Excess glutamate has been shown to cause significant impairment of brain

development in babies and can lead to mental retardation.

>

>When to Use Glutamine

>

>The major use for high-dose glutamine would be to repair gastrointestinal

injury. In such cases, I would recommend short-term use only. Those with a

history of the following conditions should avoid glutamine, even for short-term

use:

> * Stroke

> * Neurodegenerative disease

> * Pregnancy

> * Malignancy

> * Recent vaccinations

> * ADHD

> * Hypoglycemia

> * Autism

> * Multiple sclerosis

> * Other neurological disorders

>Glutamine has recently been shown to produce extreme hypoglycemia, even more so

than leucine, which is known to produce fatal hypoglycemia in infants.

>

>The reason Chinese Restaurant Syndrome is not seen with glutamine challenge is

that the glutamate receptors in the lungs and esophagus are stimulated by

glutamate, not glutamine. The glutamine must be converted first and this occurs

primarily in the brain.

>

>The only safe situation for glutamine use is in the vigorous athlete. Glutamine

is used as a muscle fuel, so that vigorous exercise will consume most of the

glutamine before it can accumulate in the brain. I would still avoid long-term

use in high doses. I would caution readers to avoid excess glutamine, especially

in the above named conditions and situations.

>Joan, PA

>Col. Potter's Cairn Rescue

>

>

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