Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 I have lots of reference books on this subject I have a lovely chart that shows at what pH what things can be taken up in the body unfortunately I am not skilled enough to add it to my webpage The book I would recommend to people is " The pH Mircle " by O Young Good luck to you -- M. Ask Certified Herb Specialists The Natural Apothecary http://thenaturalapothecary.com ---- Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote: > , > Do you have a source where I could read more about this? What is the pH > that is necessary for iodine uptake? > > Lynn > > > What interfers with iodine uptake is the body pH > > For the body to uptake iodine the pH is very narrow > > the narrowest of all the uptake Phs > > > > M. Ask > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2008 Report Share Posted May 16, 2008 > > , > Do you have a source where I could read more about this? What is the pH > that is necessary for iodine uptake? Hi Lynn, I was interested too, so I searched the 'net & came up with this: http://biomedx.com/microscopes/rrintro/rr4.html MINERAL ASSIMILATION is affected by pH. Minerals have different pH levels at which they can be assimilated into the body. Minerals on the lower end of the atomic scale can be assimilated in a wider pH range, and minerals higher up on the scale require a narrower and narrower pH range in order to be assimilated by the body. For example…. Sodium and magnesium have wide pH assimilation ranges. It narrows somewhat for calcium and potassium. Narrows more for manganese and iron. More for zinc and copper. More for iodine. Iodine, which is high up on the atomic scale, requires near perfect pH for its assimilation into the body. No exact figures, but it's a start. More info at the above site - I think 7.3 was the ideal pH mentioned. Jewel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 pH of what, exactly? And where in the body? Generally we can measure urine, saliva and blood pH. Urine and saliva have a wider range and tend to be acidic. Blood has a very very narrow range on the alkaline side right around 7.3. So is this a blue sky conversation or is there some practical direction intended here. Tonio Re: Iodine uptake pH > > , > Do you have a source where I could read more about this? What is the pH > that is necessary for iodine uptake? Hi Lynn, I was interested too, so I searched the 'net & came up with this: http://biomedx.com/microscopes/rrintro/rr4.html MINERAL ASSIMILATION is affected by pH. Minerals have different pH levels at which they can be assimilated into the body. Minerals on the lower end of the atomic scale can be assimilated in a wider pH range, and minerals higher up on the scale require a narrower and narrower pH range in order to be assimilated by the body. For example.. Sodium and magnesium have wide pH assimilation ranges. It narrows somewhat for calcium and potassium. Narrows more for manganese and iron. More for zinc and copper. More for iodine. Iodine, which is high up on the atomic scale, requires near perfect pH for its assimilation into the body. No exact figures, but it's a start. More info at the above site - I think 7.3 was the ideal pH mentioned. Jewel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1429 - Release Date: 5/12/2008 6:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 I have a real problem with the body pH stuff and I would love it if someone could refer me to some actual clinical research on the subject. My issues are as follows. Let us take lemon juice which supposedly is alkaline in the body. Now I know from chemistry that lemon juice is very acid. I know from physiology that the stomach is a very acid environment, the intestinal area is alkaline, that human blood is maintained within a very narrow range of pH. So how does an acidic food produce an " alkaline reaction " in the body? I just don't get it. I will say that my wife and I followed a book by Young for a while. We both lost weight and felt good. I tend to believe that it was because we were eating a lot of raw fresh veggies and not much fat. I'd love to have some real clinical backing about the pH stuff. There are some that think that the issue is not pH, but enzymes from uncooked food. Re: Iodine uptake pH >I have lots of reference books on this subject > I have a lovely chart that shows at what pH what things can be taken up in > the body > unfortunately > I am not skilled enough to add it to my webpage > > The book I would recommend to people is > " The pH Mircle " by O Young > > Good luck to you > -- > M. Ask > Certified Herb Specialists > The Natural Apothecary > http://thenaturalapothecary.com > > ---- Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote: >> , >> Do you have a source where I could read more about this? What is the pH >> that is necessary for iodine uptake? >> >> Lynn >> >> > What interfers with iodine uptake is the body pH >> > For the body to uptake iodine the pH is very narrow >> > the narrowest of all the uptake Phs >> > >> > M. Ask >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 ---- SeaDruid <seaorca@...> wrote: > I have a real problem with the body pH stuff and I would love it if someone > could refer me to some actual clinical research on the subject. Date: Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:12 PM From: rma@... nutrition Cc: Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> Subject: Re: Iodine uptake pH Size: 5 KB I have lots of reference books on this subject I have a lovely chart that shows at what pH what things can be taken up in the body unfortunately I am not skilled enough to add it to my webpage The book I would recommend to people is " The pH Mircle " by O Young Good luck to you -- M. Ask Certified Herb Specialists The Natural Apothecary http://thenaturalapothecary.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 > > pH of what, exactly? And where in the body? Generally we can measure urine, saliva and blood pH. Urine and saliva have a wider range and tend to be acidic. Blood has a very very narrow range on the alkaline side right around 7.3. snip Hi Tonio The pH of 7.3 was referring to blood pH. Of course if your blood varies too much from this, then death occurs. So assuming that this article is correct, then the difference in pH that is being talked about would be very small. I have a pH meter, but I'm not about to drain a tube of blood off to measure it's pH. " Ted from Bangkok " appears to have a lot of experience with urinary & salivary pH, but I don't agree with a lot of his nutritional advice. This from the Earth Clinic website: http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/pH.html " Ted from bangkok, Thailand writes: For nearly 25 years, I have been controlling by body's pH level, mostly intuitively. And it helped me survive colds, flu, etc., because of this. Therefore, I recently decided to get myself a small electronic pH meter. This will measure both my salivary pH and urinary pH. These units are quite revealing about your health. The ideal urinary pH and salivary pH has to be BOTH 6.4 pH. Why this is so important is that this is the best pH in which your body will absorb minerals. " I'm not sure where I " stand " on the ideas of pH, but the more I read on the 'net, the more interested I become. snip So is this a blue sky conversation or is there some practical direction intended here. snip Being an aspie, I am unsure of how to take this question. Lynn was wanting more info on pH & mineral uptake. I provided a link to the only web-site that I managed to find (that wasn't about growing plants) as I was interested & wanting to find out more too. I'm sure that anyone who wanted to know more, would have visited the link & read the full article to find out more details. Jewel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 > > I have a real problem with the body pH stuff and I would love it if someone > could refer me to some actual clinical research on the subject. snip When I was searching the 'net for pH & minerals, I came across this site: http://www.essense-of-life.com/moreinfo/minerals/cesium.htm It is about using minerals (cesium in particular) to cure cancer. There are a lot of articles, some from researchers, doctors etc. It seems though, that in using minerals as a cure for cancer, only the cancer cell changes pH.... snip My issues > are as follows. Let us take lemon juice which supposedly is alkaline in the > body. Now I know from chemistry that lemon juice is very acid. I know from > physiology that the stomach is a very acid environment, the intestinal area > is alkaline, that human blood is maintained within a very narrow range of > pH. So how does an acidic food produce an " alkaline reaction " in the body? I > just don't get it. snip Yeah, Weston A Price, in his book mentioned that he doesn't believe in the acid / alkaline diet ideas for health. This from his book " Nutrition & Physical Degeneration " http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price16.html " In the primitive races I have found practically no difference between the acid balance meat diet of the isolated Eskimos of the far north and the less acid vegetable and milk diet of other groups as efficient factors in control of caries. It is important to keep in mind that our bodies have a mechanism for maintaining proper acid and alkali balance in the blood and this varies through only a very narrow limit whether the balance of the total food eaten is acid or alkaline. " snip > I will say that my wife and I followed a book by Young for a while. > We both lost weight and felt good. I tend to believe that it was because we > were eating a lot of raw fresh veggies and not much fat. I'd love to have > some real clinical backing about the pH stuff. There are some that think > that the issue is not pH, but enzymes from uncooked food. snip I am thinking that a diet high in minerals would be part of the optimal diet. I don't know, I am looking for answers too. A couple of people on the " raw paleo diet " group recently said that eating a raw meat diet has made them more alkaline - I assume that they were testing saliva & urine....... The Eskimos Price mentioned would have been eating raw meat too. Jewel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 I'm with you on this one: the way people explain " PH balance " doesn't jibe well with how scientists work with PH. Esp. since the blood really doesn't change PH much unless you are really sick. I did find out one interesting data point though: the science of " PH testing " is done on urine. If your urine is acidic, then you are considered " acidic " . That actually makes a lot of sense. There are a number of things that will turn your urine acidic, including: -- Eating the D-isomer of lactic acid, which isn't readily absorbed -- Eating meat -- Eating foods that promote certain bacteria/yeast in the gut (which produce acids) The potassium and calcium etc. in vegies probably counteracts some of that. I think it IS important to get more minerals when you eat meat. Carnivores typically eat the bones with small animals and gnaw the bones with larger ones, and in the past humans did about the same (and even ground up bones into pastes, and fermented them, to add to foods). Anyway, when you eat a lot of protein, this causes byproducts that *would* acidify your blood, except the body uses calcium to neutralize the acid. So if you eat meat without calcium, you get weak bones (and probably more acidic urine). Calcium neutralizes some other substances too, esp. in the gut, causing them to not be absorbed. Oxalic acid fand phytates, for example. I think other minerals and substances in plants have similar functions. So eating plants with your meal is a good thing .. so is taking extra calcium, esp. for those of us who don't do dairy. Grains also acidify urine. This is especially true in cattle, who don't handle grains very well, but get fed them anyway because it makes them fat faster. Eating grain foods tends to increase the numbers of acid-producing bacteria in the gut. Some of the acid they create is the D-isomer of lactic acid, which has to be removed by the blood. In cows this can kill the cow, esp. since their gut isn't normally acidic at all. In humans it's unlikely to be fatal but I think it isn't the ideal digestive path. This is even more true with certain grains that don't digest well (wheat being the worst) or when people have compromised digestion to start with, and when the fiber/probiotic content of the diet is low. Lemon juice, though it is acidic, doesn't acidify the body because it doesn't cause either of the above processes. And it contains minerals that would help clear organic acids from the blood. A whole orange, though acidic, also contains fiber that keep the gut bacteria in the correct " mode " . As you said, the fact it has a bunch of extra H+ really isn't an issue, since your stomach is full of H+ anyway. Anyway, this isn't exactly what the acid/base people SAY, but it's my interpretation of what is going on. In our society people really aren't into eating vegies and when they do cook them, it's in some pathetic form like nuked frozen peas. We had a Turkish lady working with us though, and HER idea of " a meal " included no less than 5 dishes of very wonderful vegies, cooked and cooled into salads of a sort, plus a little bit of rice and meat (usually stuffed into one of the vegies, such as stuffed squash). Korean cuisine is similar: there is meat or fish, but there are also dishes of various sorts of vegies, several of them, all amazingly tasty. That kind of eating makes me feel so good. These days I try for a meal that is 3/4 vegies and 1/4 meat, with some starch as a carrier (like a small bowl of rice or tortillas). On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, SeaDruid <seaorca@...> wrote: > I have a real problem with the body pH stuff and I would love it if someone > could refer me to some actual clinical research on the subject. My issues > are as follows. Let us take lemon juice which supposedly is alkaline in the > body. Now I know from chemistry that lemon juice is very acid. I know from > physiology that the stomach is a very acid environment, the intestinal area > is alkaline, that human blood is maintained within a very narrow range of > pH. So how does an acidic food produce an " alkaline reaction " in the body? I > just don't get it. > > I will say that my wife and I followed a book by Young for a while. > We both lost weight and felt good. I tend to believe that it was because we > were eating a lot of raw fresh veggies and not much fat. I'd love to have > some real clinical backing about the pH stuff. There are some that think > that the issue is not pH, but enzymes from uncooked food. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:31 PM, jeweltoo2002 <nzjewel@...> wrote: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price16.html > > " In the primitive races I have found practically no difference between > the acid balance meat diet of the isolated Eskimos of the far north > and the less acid vegetable and milk diet of other groups as efficient > factors in control of caries. It is important to keep in mind that our > bodies have a mechanism for maintaining proper acid and alkali balance > in the blood and this varies through only a very narrow limit whether > the balance of the total food eaten is acid or alkaline. " Thing is, the Eskimos tended to eat *whole fish* ... bones and all, and esp. they enjoyed the heads. They ate whole birds too, bones and all. So while the meat part was acidic, there was no lack of calcium. The body can " decide " how much of the calcium to absorb, so the actual balance between meat and calcium can vary quite a bit. I tend to agree with Price that the blood doesn't get acidic unless you are in acidosis, in which case the paramedics will probably be there. But in our society we really *don't* get enough minerals, esp. compared to about any pre-neolithic culture. Shoot, even in Medieval Europe, they were baking " blackbirds in a pie " and eating them whole, and the Japanese eat whole baby fish and shrimp with the shells. We *need* minerals to de-acidify protein-rich foods ... not because the blood will go acid, but because we will exhaust our mineral stores and end up with weak bones. And maybe other problems ... calcium is involved in everything from tooth health to migraines and PMS and maybe cancer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Raw Paleo Diet making people more alkaline compared to what? I am one of those doing a largely raw paleo diet with raw meat and raw fats, little or no grains, vegetables in season locally, kimchi and kraut the other half+ of the year. My urine and saliva are in the 5-6 pH range. I take calcium and lots of trace minerals, and I eat a good amount of kelp and dulse every day, so I am very interested in the practical application of this discussion. I remember our friend Isao suggesting soaking seaweed in raw vinegar to help release and make the nutrients more bioavailable, and that it was commonly done in Japan. He didn't offer anything more to support that suggestion, however, I have been using it. Unfortunately, I don't know how to verify it efficacy myself. So, a diet high in raw meats will be alkalizing compared to a diet high in soda pop and junk food, but not compared to a raw vegan diet. Tonio Re: Iodine uptake pH > > I have a real problem with the body pH stuff and I would love it if someone > could refer me to some actual clinical research on the subject. snip When I was searching the 'net for pH & minerals, I came across this site: http://www.essense-of-life.com/moreinfo/minerals/cesium.htm It is about using minerals (cesium in particular) to cure cancer. There are a lot of articles, some from researchers, doctors etc. It seems though, that in using minerals as a cure for cancer, only the cancer cell changes pH.... snip My issues > are as follows. Let us take lemon juice which supposedly is alkaline in the > body. Now I know from chemistry that lemon juice is very acid. I know from > physiology that the stomach is a very acid environment, the intestinal area > is alkaline, that human blood is maintained within a very narrow range of > pH. So how does an acidic food produce an " alkaline reaction " in the body? I > just don't get it. snip Yeah, Weston A Price, in his book mentioned that he doesn't believe in the acid / alkaline diet ideas for health. This from his book " Nutrition & Physical Degeneration " http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price16.html " In the primitive races I have found practically no difference between the acid balance meat diet of the isolated Eskimos of the far north and the less acid vegetable and milk diet of other groups as efficient factors in control of caries. It is important to keep in mind that our bodies have a mechanism for maintaining proper acid and alkali balance in the blood and this varies through only a very narrow limit whether the balance of the total food eaten is acid or alkaline. " snip > I will say that my wife and I followed a book by Young for a while. > We both lost weight and felt good. I tend to believe that it was because we > were eating a lot of raw fresh veggies and not much fat. I'd love to have > some real clinical backing about the pH stuff. There are some that think > that the issue is not pH, but enzymes from uncooked food. snip I am thinking that a diet high in minerals would be part of the optimal diet. I don't know, I am looking for answers too. A couple of people on the " raw paleo diet " group recently said that eating a raw meat diet has made them more alkaline - I assume that they were testing saliva & urine....... The Eskimos Price mentioned would have been eating raw meat too. Jewel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1429 - Release Date: 5/12/2008 6:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Bless you Jewel, I was feeling the same way... -- Warmest Regards, Robin Little Being an aspie, I am unsure of how to take this question. Jewel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Can I add kelp to my sauerkraut? Would it taste good? Has anyone tried this? Would it increase the amount of iodine available to have the kelp in with the sour of the kraut? Would it inhibit the good bacteria? Would it increase it? Could I use it instead of the sea salt or should I decrease the sea salt given the saltiness of the kelp? Is there a traditional kim chee recipe that uses kelp? Connie < who is full of questions today> _____ From: nutrition [mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of tonio epstein Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 5:41 AM nutrition Subject: Re: Iodine uptake pH Raw Paleo Diet making people more alkaline compared to what? I am one of those doing a largely raw paleo diet with raw meat and raw fats, little or no grains, vegetables in season locally, kimchi and kraut the other half+ of the year. My urine and saliva are in the 5-6 pH range. I take calcium and lots of trace minerals, and I eat a good amount of kelp and dulse every day, so I am very interested in the practical application of this discussion. I remember our friend Isao suggesting soaking seaweed in raw vinegar to help release and make the nutrients more bioavailable, and that it was commonly done in Japan. He didn't offer anything more to support that suggestion, however, I have been using it. Unfortunately, I don't know how to verify it efficacy myself. So, a diet high in raw meats will be alkalizing compared to a diet high in soda pop and junk food, but not compared to a raw vegan diet. Tonio Re: Iodine uptake pH > > I have a real problem with the body pH stuff and I would love it if someone > could refer me to some actual clinical research on the subject. snip When I was searching the 'net for pH & minerals, I came across this site: http://www.essense- <http://www.essense-of-life.com/moreinfo/minerals/cesium.htm> of-life.com/moreinfo/minerals/cesium.htm It is about using minerals (cesium in particular) to cure cancer. There are a lot of articles, some from researchers, doctors etc. It seems though, that in using minerals as a cure for cancer, only the cancer cell changes pH.... snip My issues > are as follows. Let us take lemon juice which supposedly is alkaline in the > body. Now I know from chemistry that lemon juice is very acid. I know from > physiology that the stomach is a very acid environment, the intestinal area > is alkaline, that human blood is maintained within a very narrow range of > pH. So how does an acidic food produce an " alkaline reaction " in the body? I > just don't get it. snip Yeah, Weston A Price, in his book mentioned that he doesn't believe in the acid / alkaline diet ideas for health. This from his book " Nutrition & Physical Degeneration " http://journeytofor <http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html> ever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html http://journeytofor <http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price16.html> ever.org/farm_library/price/price16.html " In the primitive races I have found practically no difference between the acid balance meat diet of the isolated Eskimos of the far north and the less acid vegetable and milk diet of other groups as efficient factors in control of caries. It is important to keep in mind that our bodies have a mechanism for maintaining proper acid and alkali balance in the blood and this varies through only a very narrow limit whether the balance of the total food eaten is acid or alkaline. " snip > I will say that my wife and I followed a book by Young for a while. > We both lost weight and felt good. I tend to believe that it was because we > were eating a lot of raw fresh veggies and not much fat. I'd love to have > some real clinical backing about the pH stuff. There are some that think > that the issue is not pH, but enzymes from uncooked food. snip I am thinking that a diet high in minerals would be part of the optimal diet. I don't know, I am looking for answers too. A couple of people on the " raw paleo diet " group recently said that eating a raw meat diet has made them more alkaline - I assume that they were testing saliva & urine....... The Eskimos Price mentioned would have been eating raw meat too. Jewel ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1429 - Release Date: 5/12/2008 6:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 I think the " raw " part of the discussion is a red herring. We are talking about protein byproducts and minerals, neither of which is affected by cooking. Raw plants do affect digestion, which affects gut bacteria, which affect the amount of acids put into the blood. If you read about meat diets and cats, cats have acidic urine whether they are fed raw or cooked meat. Meat breakdown products are acidic. The body has to either excrete the acid or neutralize it. Neutralizing it requires minerals like Calcium, and the danger is that one's mineral stores can go too low. This is easily fixed though, like you did (and I do!): just get plenty of minerals. The thing that gets me about the 'ph of foods' people is that they use it as a way to promote veganism and rawfood ism. I'm all for lots of vegies and raw food, but cooked food can be great too, and not all food lends itself to be eaten raw, and meat isn't evil, esp. not just because it needs calcium to digest properly. On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 5:41 AM, tonio epstein <tonio@...> wrote: > Raw Paleo Diet making people more alkaline compared to what? I am one of those doing a largely raw paleo diet with raw meat and raw fats, little or no grains, vegetables in season locally, kimchi and kraut the other half+ of the year. > > My urine and saliva are in the 5-6 pH range. I take calcium and lots of trace minerals, and I eat a good amount of kelp and dulse every day, so I am very interested in the practical application of this discussion. > > I remember our friend Isao suggesting soaking seaweed in raw vinegar to help release and make the nutrients more bioavailable, and that it was commonly done in Japan. He didn't offer anything more to support that suggestion, however, I have been using it. Unfortunately, I don't know how to verify it efficacy myself. > > So, a diet high in raw meats will be alkalizing compared to a diet high in soda pop and junk food, but not compared to a raw vegan diet. > > Tonio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 The koreans add seaweed to their kimchi sometimes. I haven't tried it much myself. Adding seaweed to most foods though, doesn't add a huge amount of " seaweed taste " per se. It just makes the food taste better. Umami. MSG was created to have the same effect as seaweed, which also contains glutamates, though seaweed doesn't seem to affect people the way MSG does. On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Connie Hampton <connie@...> wrote: > Can I add kelp to my sauerkraut? Would it taste good? Has anyone tried > this? Would it increase the amount of iodine available to have the kelp in > with the sour of the kraut? Would it inhibit the good bacteria? Would it > increase it? Could I use it instead of the sea salt or should I decrease > the sea salt given the saltiness of the kelp? Is there a traditional kim > chee recipe that uses kelp? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 ---- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 On 5/17/08, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 ---- Connie Hampton <connie@...> wrote: > Can I add kelp to my sauerkraut? Would it taste good? Has anyone tried > this? Would it increase the amount of iodine available to have the kelp in > with the sour of the kraut? Would it inhibit the good bacteria? Would it > increase it? Could I use it instead of the sea salt or should I decrease > the sea salt given the saltiness of the kelp? Is there a traditional kim > chee recipe that uses kelp? > > > > Connie < who is full of questions today> If you read the book I posted or anyone of the Ph people books most of your questions will be abswered as to adding kelp to kraut ... why? The kraut ... if it is true lacto fermented kraut gives you the good bugs your GI system needs which helps keep your body health from that direction If you are taking kelp for the iodine remember that the pH has to be near perfect for the body to uptake the iodine ... I consume my kelp as a powder as replacement for salt -- M. Ask Certified Herb Specialists The Natural Apothecary http://thenaturalapothecary.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 , > Thing is, the Eskimos tended to eat *whole fish* ... bones and all, > and esp. they enjoyed the heads. They ate whole birds too, > bones and all. So while the meat part was acidic, there was > no lack of calcium. The body can " decide " how much of the > calcium to absorb, so the actual balance between meat > and calcium can vary quite a bit. I think the deeper point here is that the meat being acid thing is nonsense. This has been disproven by researchers associated with the University of Connecticut working under Jane Kerstetter at Yale who showed that the increase in urinary Ca after high-meat diets is 80% accountable by a meat-induced increase in Ca absorption, which occurs even at " deficient " (vis-a-vis RDA) Ca intakes, and that there is no increase in bone resorption and in fact a non-significant trend towards lower bone turnover. They also showed with isotope tracers that a greater proportion of urinary Ca comes from bone on low-protein diets than on high-protein diets. Gaffney-Stromberg showed in rats a statistically significant decrease in bone turnover, strenthening the interpretation of the human research that non-significant trend toward lower bone turnover was a real effect -- and in any case, it clearly isn't increasing. Also, calcium does not and absolutely cannot neutralize an acid. Both are positively charged. Phosphorus, which is negatively charged, can, and that is why phosphate makes up a major buffer system to neutralize strong acids in the urine. > I tend to agree with Price that the blood doesn't get acidic > unless you are in acidosis, in which case the paramedics > will probably be there. But in our society we really *don't* > get enough minerals, esp. compared to about any pre-neolithic > culture. Shoot, even in Medieval Europe, they were baking > " blackbirds in a pie " and eating them whole, and the Japanese > eat whole baby fish and shrimp with the shells. We *need* > minerals to de-acidify protein-rich foods ... not because > the blood will go acid, but because we will exhaust our > mineral stores and end up with weak bones. And maybe > other problems ... calcium is involved in > everything from tooth health to migraines and PMS > and maybe cancer. Yes but the research consistently shows that high-meat diets benefit the bones without respect to calcium intakes. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 , > Anyway, when you eat a lot of protein, this causes byproducts > that *would* acidify your blood, except the body uses calcium > to neutralize the acid. So if you eat meat without calcium, you get > weak bones (and probably more acidic urine). Could you explain what these products are? The main waste product, as I understand it, is nitrogen. According to Wikipedia -- which, granted, I would not give the last word on anything -- the body makes urea from ammonia because ammonia is basic (alkaline), and the urea is neither acidic nor basic: ======== http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea The individual atoms that make up a urea molecule come from carbon dioxide, water, aspartate, and ammonia in a metabolic pathway known as the urea cycle, an anabolic process. Organisms synthesize urea from ammonia because ammonia (a common metabolic waste product) raises pH in cells to toxic levels. Therefore, urea synthesis is necessary even though it costs energy to produce. Urea is neither acidic nor basic, so it is a perfect vehicle for getting rid of nitrogen waste. ======== The theory on meat inducing bone resorption states that sulfur amino acids increase the net acid load. I'm not sure exactly by what pathway this supposedly occurs, but it is in any case essentially disproven by the fact that the meat-induced increase in urinary calcium has nothingo do with bone resorption. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Jewel, I checked the link on the internet, very interesting correlations between PH and mineral assimilation! Thanks. CJ > > http://biomedx.com/microscopes/rrintro/rr4.html > > > > MINERAL ASSIMILATION is affected by pH. Minerals have different pH > levels at which they can be assimilated into the body. Minerals on the > lower end of the atomic scale can be assimilated in a wider pH range, > and minerals higher up on the scale require a narrower and narrower pH > range in order to be assimilated by the body. For example…. > > Sodium and magnesium have wide pH assimilation ranges. > It narrows somewhat for calcium and potassium. > Narrows more for manganese and iron. > More for zinc and copper. > More for iodine. > > Iodine, which is high up on the atomic scale, requires near perfect pH > for its assimilation into the body. > > No exact figures, but it's a start. More info at the above site - I > think 7.3 was the ideal pH mentioned. > > Jewel > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 And somewhere in this is the amino acid Purine, too much of which causes uric acid crystalize into sharp crystals the joints causing gout and not so sharp stones in the kidneys. All cell death produces purines. Those with gout can reduce the purine content of the blood (I think!) by only 30% by reducing protein content of the diet, the rest is from normal (or abnormal) cell turnover. There are many triggers to gout attacks, some from proteins like liver and red meat, but for some people things like asperagus is said to cause an attack. I would love any comment or research you come across on this!! Connie > > , > > > Anyway, when you eat a lot of protein, this causes byproducts > > that *would* acidify your blood, except the body uses calcium > > to neutralize the acid. So if you eat meat without calcium, you get > > weak bones (and probably more acidic urine). > > Could you explain what these products are? The main waste product, as > I understand it, is nitrogen. According to Wikipedia -- which, > granted, I would not give the last word on anything -- the body makes > urea from ammonia because ammonia is basic (alkaline), and the urea is > neither acidic nor basic: > > ======== > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea > > The individual atoms that make up a urea molecule come from carbon > dioxide, water, aspartate, and ammonia in a metabolic pathway known as > the urea cycle, an anabolic process. Organisms synthesize urea from > ammonia because ammonia (a common metabolic waste product) raises pH > in cells to toxic levels. Therefore, urea synthesis is necessary even > though it costs energy to produce. Urea is neither acidic nor basic, > so it is a perfect vehicle for getting rid of nitrogen waste. > ======== > > The theory on meat inducing bone resorption states that sulfur amino > acids increase the net acid load. I'm not sure exactly by what > pathway this supposedly occurs, but it is in any case essentially > disproven by the fact that the meat-induced increase in urinary > calcium has nothingo do with bone resorption. > > Chris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 , I must say that the following statement of yours is very inaccurate. I think the " raw " part of the discussion is a red herring. We are talking about protein byproducts and minerals, neither of which is affected by cooking. Raw plants do affect digestion, which affects gut bacteria, which affect the amount of acids put into the blood. On both counts. Byproducts from raw and cooked meats are dramatically different. And I have to wonder where you got that minerals are not affected by cooking. There is a lot of questionable information out there, and we are all subject to it to some degree or another, and it's probably impossible for any of us to sort it all out correctly. Of course, I could be wrong, too. If I cannot prove it first hand then I cannot be absolutely sure of its accuracy. And even then my method(s) of proof could be inaccurate. I appreciate that his more of a scientific background on much of this. The positive and negative ion issue is most often overlooked, and as I understand it, or have been led to understand it, cooking can affect the ion charge in some substances. can you shed any more light on that? Or anyone else? Tonio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Tonio, > I appreciate that his more of a scientific background on much of this. > The positive and negative ion issue is most often overlooked, and as I > understand it, or have been led to understand it, cooking can affect the ion > charge in some substances. > > can you shed any more light on that? Or anyone else? Not really. I don't know much about how cooking can affect minerals or metabolic byproducts, but the cooking could alter the complexes minerals make, which can affect their absorbability, and the cooking surface could perhaps interact with the minerals. But cooking wouldn't destroy minerals in the way it can destroy vitamins. I suppose it's possible that cooking could affect metabolic byproducts but I don't know enough about it to comment. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 I think the differences are largely in vocabulary. What you just said, that more Ca is is excreted after eating meat, is pretty much what I've read too. Eat meat: need calcium. I also agree that eating meat makes for *stronger* bones, in general. As for why eating meat makes your urine more acidic, I don't know the exact reaction that takes place, but it seems to be pretty much accepted at least in vet circles. For cats, it is desirable to have acidic urine so they don't get blocked urinary tracks, and a high meat diet does that: http://www.thedailycat.com/Nutrition/urinary_tract_disease/index.html 1. Feed foods that reduce urine pH Look for cat foods that contain high quality animal-based protein. Urine pH is naturally influenced by the protein source in your cat's diet. Cat foods that contain large amounts of animal- and fish-based protein produce more acidic urine. Foods that contain large amounts of plant protein, such as soybean meal, can promote more alkaline urine, which you may want to avoid with your cat. (Which brings up an interesting point: maybe human urine *should* be on the acidic side too, so we don't get kidney stones?) Anyway, I'm not arguing what *should* be the pH of human urine, I don't know. Only that in terms of " acid " vs. " alkaline " foods, the concept seems to be testable in terms of urine. Blood pH doesn't change much, but urine pH does. So my interpretation of the " alkaline/acidic " diet controversy is that what they are talking about, in essence, is urinary pH, not blood pH. Which relates to the original question about " which part of the body " does the pH refer to. I totally agree that the body's pH is tightly regulated, and by a number of mechanisms. But the WAY it is regulated, to a large extent, is that either the acid stuff gets excreted, or it get neutralized with other substances. There is a good discussion of multiple factors on the BeyondVegetarianism website. Perhaps some people will do some experiments and come up with the " real " reasons for all this, but it does seem that people way back when ate a fair number of plants and meat and insects and were quite healthy, a point I think we agree on. Acid/alkaline dietary load. Additionally, bone mass is also dependent upon the relative acid/alkaline dietary load [Massey 1998; Barzel and Massey 1998]. Acid generated by the diet is excreted in the urine and can cause calciuresis. Meat and fish have a high potential renal acid load (PRAL) whereas fruits and vegetables have a negative PRAL, meaning they reduce acid excretion. The human kidney cannot excrete urine with a pH lower than 5; consequently the acids (mainly phosphate and sulfate) of acid-producing foods such as meats, fish, and some cereals must be buffered partially by calcium which is ultimately derived from the skeleton [Massey 1998; Barzel and Massey 1998]. http://www.beyondveg.com/cordain-l/prot-calc/prot-calcium-loss-1a.shtml Because fruits and vegetables can act as alkaline buffers for the acids derived from meats and fish, they have been recently shown to decrease urinary calcium excretion even when dietary protein and calcium are held constant [Appel et al. 1997]. In other words, without reducing either dietary protein or calcium in the diet, calcium balance is improved when the percentage of fruits and vegetables in the diet is increased. Thus, the high levels of fruits and vegetables that Stone-Age people consumed may have partially counteracted the calciuretic effects of high-protein diets. As for your study that shows that protein increases calcium absorption: that is great! But you still have to have something to absorb calcium FROM. (and magnesium and all the other minerals). Which would be either bones or vegies. Hardly anyone talks about the bones, they all concentrate on the vegies, but bones are a very concentrated source of calcium/magnesium/etc. and when one is eating a lot of small animals or fish (as our ancestors did) the bones kind of come with the meal. On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote: > I think the deeper point here is that the meat being acid thing is > nonsense. This has been disproven by researchers associated with the > University of Connecticut working under Jane Kerstetter at Yale who > showed that the increase in urinary Ca after high-meat diets is 80% > accountable by a meat-induced increase in Ca absorption, which occurs > even at " deficient " (vis-a-vis RDA) Ca intakes, and that there is no > increase in bone resorption and in fact a non-significant trend > towards lower bone turnover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Absorbency of foods does change with cooking, so I agree there. Minerals themselves don't actually change though. You can bake calcium carbonate all day in the oven, and it's still calcium carbonate, unless maybe you burn it up and turn it into some other form. But even then, the calcium atom is till calcium. It won't turn into something else unless you put it in a nuclear furnace. Usually though, when people are talking about raw foods they are talking about vegies, and it's not clear that raw vegies are more digestible than cooked vegies. Might be true for some vegies, but often they are more digestible cooked. And like I said, the fiber content of the vegies DOES change the gut bacteria (which in turn change how much acid is absorbed into the bloodstream). Raw vegies have more intact fiber, which can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it. And yes, you have the enzymes too. On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 6:32 PM, tonio epstein <tonio@...> wrote: > , I must say that the following statement of yours is very inaccurate. > > I think the " raw " part of the discussion is a red herring. We are talking > about protein byproducts and minerals, neither of which is affected > by cooking. Raw plants do affect digestion, which affects gut > bacteria, which affect the amount of acids put into the blood. > > On both counts. Byproducts from raw and cooked meats are dramatically different. And I have to wonder where you got that minerals are not affected by cooking. There is a lot of questionable information out there, and we are all subject to it to some degree or another, and it's probably impossible for any of us to sort it all out correctly. Of course, I could be wrong, too. If I cannot prove it first hand then I cannot be absolutely sure of its accuracy. And even then my method(s) of proof could be inaccurate. > > I appreciate that his more of a scientific background on much of this. The positive and negative ion issue is most often overlooked, and as I understand it, or have been led to understand it, cooking can affect the ion charge in some substances. > > can you shed any more light on that? Or anyone else? > > Tonio > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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