Guest guest Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Alas I am. Sally Deanna wrote: > Sally, > > I buy from these ranchers here in Texas. They are in a region that has > the best selection of grasses growing nearly year round. They really > know cattle and are great people. They ship anywhere in the US. Are > you in the UK? > > > Regards, > Deanna > >> Where do you get the beef from? Sounds delicious and full of good stuff >> xx Sally >> >> >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I haven't tried it, mainly because I DID some research on fermentation, and meat is one of those things that easily grows clostridium (botulism) if you don't know what you are doing ... if it is truly aerobic, it probably won't, but I don't know enough to know. Some of the " traditional cultures " are the ones currently being bitten by botulism, probably because they are using modern tools (like plastic containers) or else missing something their ancestors knew. On Jan 1, 2008 12:21 PM, Deanna <WAPFbaby@...> wrote: > I am interested in learning more about high meat, specifically what > beneficial microbes are found in it. I guess it is aerobic in nature. > It is a traditional food, or at least it was, in many cultures. Has > anyone tried this? If so, can you point me to resources about it? I > have searched the MN files without luck. > > TIA, > Deanna > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 As I understand it, because the jar is being opened to air out every 3-4 days botulism cannot occur, as that would require an anaerobic environment. And doing the ferment in the frig creates the optimal environment for that particular bacterial culture, which can start to be eaten after one month, and is good for up to one year. The modern adaptation of high meat is a primaldiet thing, which I've been doing for the past ten years. I have not done the high meat, but hear many very good things about it, and have not heard a single bad thing about it, except maybe the taste. I am not aware of any studies done to list the bacteria in high meat. The purpose and effects of it are to develop a healthy bacterial environment in the gut. It reportedly eliminates constipation, strengthen the immune system and creates an overall sense of wellbeing and euphoria. i.e. good for eliminating depression. Tonio I haven't tried it, mainly because I DID some research on fermentation, and meat is one of those things that easily grows clostridium (botulism) if you don't know what you are doing ... if it is truly aerobic, it probably won't, but I don't know enough to know. Some of the " traditional cultures " are the ones currently being bitten by botulism, probably because they are using modern tools (like plastic containers) or else missing something their ancestors knew. On Jan 1, 2008 12:21 PM, Deanna <WAPFbaby@...> wrote: > I am interested in learning more about high meat, specifically what > beneficial microbes are found in it. I guess it is aerobic in nature. > It is a traditional food, or at least it was, in many cultures. Has > anyone tried this? If so, can you point me to resources about it? I > have searched the MN files without luck. > > TIA, > Deanna > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Thanks Tonio & . I am eating a mostly raw paleo diet now myself. I am very curious about high meat, as I do know some folks who partake in it and get some benefit. Being aerobic in nature, I was very curious about the microbes in it, but there is just nothing out there that I can find. I guess AV has a recipe in his second book. It can get some molds on it, and thus may be perhaps like cheese in this regard. What types of bacteria would grow, I wonder? Deanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 You know about hanging meat to soften it and partly break down the tissues before cooking? That is still done in the UK. Also game (pheasants, wild duck, partridges etc) were traditionally hung until smelly before cooking. To be correct they had to smell " high " -- then they tasted best. All this is hung/allowed to partly decompose and then cooked Sally tonio epstein wrote: > As I understand it, because the jar is being opened to air out every 3-4 days botulism cannot occur, as that would require an anaerobic environment. And doing the ferment in the frig creates the optimal environment for that particular bacterial culture, which can start to be eaten after one month, and is good for up to one year. > The modern adaptation of high meat is a primaldiet thing, which I've been doing for the past ten years. I have not done the high meat, but hear many very good things about it, and have not heard a single bad thing about it, except maybe the taste. > I am not aware of any studies done to list the bacteria in high meat. The purpose and effects of it are to develop a healthy bacterial environment in the gut. It reportedly eliminates constipation, strengthen the immune system and creates an overall sense of wellbeing and euphoria. i.e. good for eliminating depression. > Tonio > > > I haven't tried it, mainly because I DID some research > on fermentation, and meat is one of those things > that easily grows clostridium (botulism) if you > don't know what you are doing ... if it is truly > aerobic, it probably won't, but I don't know enough > to know. Some of the " traditional cultures " are the > ones currently being bitten by botulism, probably > because they are using modern tools (like plastic > containers) or else missing something their ancestors > knew. > > On Jan 1, 2008 12:21 PM, Deanna <WAPFbaby@...> wrote: > > > I am interested in learning more about high meat, specifically what > > beneficial microbes are found in it. I guess it is aerobic in nature. > > It is a traditional food, or at least it was, in many cultures. Has > > anyone tried this? If so, can you point me to resources about it? I > > have searched the MN files without luck. > > > > TIA, > > Deanna > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I was thinking about that, and about cheese. The inside of a cheese is anaerobic. Kimchi is anaerobic too. So is wine, the way it is usually made. None of those products tend to cause botulism. Botulism tends to be common in homemade sausage, green beans, and home-fermented fish. The beef I get is in fact hung for a week or two before cutting it ... it gets moldy on the outside (they cut that off, but it doesn't seem to be toxic: it doesn't kill the chickens anyway). The internal enzymes in the beef break down the tissues, even at fridge temps, and I'm guessing there wouldn't be botulism spores *inside* the meat. One of the more recent botulism breakouts though, involved a beached whale which was left, according to tradition, to rot awhile before eating. The scientists said it probably was scraped on the sand and that allowed the botulism spores to enter. With fish, the spores can be in the digestive tract. But with beef? Probably they would not be IN the meat, just on the surface, so if the surface is exposed to the air, the inside can do whatever it does to get " high " . The inside shouldn't have *any* bacteria in it though, so whatever gets in would be what is on the surface? -- On Jan 5, 2008 10:39 AM, Eva family <bobsallyeva@...> wrote: > You know about hanging meat to soften it and partly break down the > tissues before cooking? That is still done in the UK. Also game > (pheasants, wild duck, partridges etc) were traditionally hung until > smelly before cooking. To be correct they had to smell " high " -- then > they tasted best. All this is hung/allowed to partly decompose and then > cooked > Sally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 > > [sally] You know about hanging meat to soften it and partly break down the > tissues before cooking? That is still done in the UK. Also game > (pheasants, wild duck, partridges etc) were traditionally hung until > smelly before cooking. To be correct they had to smell " high " -- then > they tasted best. All this is hung/allowed to partly decompose and then > cooked I buy beef that is dry aged 21 days. It is very tender and flavorful, even when eaten raw (depending on the cut, of course). One time, I got some beef shanks that were rather high smelling and a darker color. Maybe they got left on the rack longer. > [] I was thinking about that, and about cheese. The inside of > a cheese is anaerobic. Kimchi is anaerobic too. So is > wine, the way it is usually made. None of those products > tend to cause botulism. Botulism tends to be common > in homemade sausage, green beans, and home-fermented > fish. Haven't you made kimchi with dried anchovies? I have some in the fridge now, and all this botulism talk has me nervous. The kimchi has a normal amount of salt in it, and there aren't many dried anchovies in it. Does salt prevent it? Should I worry and cook it in soup? Deanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Where do you get the beef from? Sounds delicious and full of good stuff xx Sally yoginidd wrote: >> [sally] You know about hanging meat to soften it and partly break down the >> tissues before cooking? That is still done in the UK. Also game >> (pheasants, wild duck, partridges etc) were traditionally hung until >> smelly before cooking. To be correct they had to smell " high " -- then >> they tasted best. All this is hung/allowed to partly decompose and then >> cooked >> > > I buy beef that is dry aged 21 days. It is very tender and flavorful, > even when eaten raw (depending on the cut, of course). One time, I got > some beef shanks that were rather high smelling and a darker color. > Maybe they got left on the rack longer. > > >> [] I was thinking about that, and about cheese. The inside of >> a cheese is anaerobic. Kimchi is anaerobic too. So is >> wine, the way it is usually made. None of those products >> tend to cause botulism. Botulism tends to be common >> in homemade sausage, green beans, and home-fermented >> fish. >> > > Haven't you made kimchi with dried anchovies? I have some in the fridge > now, and all this botulism talk has me nervous. The kimchi has a normal > amount of salt in it, and there aren't many dried anchovies in it. Does > salt prevent it? Should I worry and cook it in soup? > > > Deanna > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Botulism doesn't seem to develop in anything with salt or acid. Actually it's pretty rare in foods ... it seems to be like fireweed, something that pops up if nothing else is growing. Foods that are full of lactobacillus ... well, lb. is just like crabgrass, it takes over! Usually you hear about botulism in home-canned foods, because boiling the vegies or meat kills pretty much all the bacteria, but the clostridium spores can survive boiling. So boiling clears the way for them. Ditto for garlic in oil: garlic is pretty antibiotic, so there aren't a lot of bacteria on a garlic clove. So the clostridium can grow there. But salted garlic cloves, maybe not. Most dried fish is pretty salty, and I'm guessing that is one reason why: if you salt the fish while it is drying, you won't get bacterial action. So no, I don't worry about botulism in kimchi. Actually the toxin is pretty fragile too. Boiling destroys it, and I wonder if fermenting destroys it too? Anyway, I haven't heard of any botulism cases with kraut or kimchi, and with the millions of people who eat those products, you'd think there would be some cases, if it were possible. The botulism cases that DO happen are like, 50 a year, I think? You can look it up at the CDC website. Mostly home-canned foods and Alaska native fermented fish. And babies eating raw honey. One other interesting thing about clostridium though, is that people seem to be picking it up in their guts after being hospitalized or being on antibiotics. So they go in for some surgery or another, and after they leave they have these constant gut problems. I kinda think some of the people with " constant gut problems " are maybe fighting clostridium: once it's in the gut it's hard to get rid of. I think the bentonite/psyllium helps get rid of it though, and probably taking lots of probiotic foods (like kimchi!). On Jan 6, 2008 12:07 PM, yoginidd <WAPFbaby@...> wrote: > Haven't you made kimchi with dried anchovies? I have some in the fridge > now, and all this botulism talk has me nervous. The kimchi has a normal > amount of salt in it, and there aren't many dried anchovies in it. Does > salt prevent it? Should I worry and cook it in soup? > > > Deanna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Sally, I buy from these ranchers here in Texas. They are in a region that has the best selection of grasses growing nearly year round. They really know cattle and are great people. They ship anywhere in the US. Are you in the UK? Regards, Deanna > Where do you get the beef from? Sounds delicious and full of good stuff > xx Sally > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 , Thank you for the complete answer that goes the extra mile! I thought kimchi with anchovies was okay. It has ample salt and has soured nicely. Regarding clay, can I buy it at the HFS, or must I order it? Either way, is there a brand and possibly a place of purchase for bentonite you recommend? It's one of those things I have been meaning to try and haven't gotten off my intentions about. Thanks, Deanna > Botulism doesn't seem to develop in anything with > salt or acid. Actually it's pretty rare in foods ... > it seems to be like fireweed, something that pops > up if nothing else is growing. Foods that are full > of lactobacillus ... well, lb. is just like crabgrass, > it takes over! > > ... > So they go in for some surgery or another, and after they > leave they have these constant gut problems. > I kinda think some of the people with " constant > gut problems " are maybe fighting clostridium: > once it's in the gut it's hard to get rid of. I think > the bentonite/psyllium helps get rid of it though, > and probably taking lots of probiotic foods (like > kimchi!). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Duh, the link might have been helpful! http://www.burgundypasturebeef.com Deanna wrote: > Sally, > > I buy from these ranchers here in Texas. They are in a region that has > the best selection of grasses growing nearly year round. They really > know cattle and are great people. They ship anywhere in the US. Are > you in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Dried Anchovies are usually pretty salty to begin with. Barry > Haven't you made kimchi with dried anchovies? I have some in the fridge > now, and all this botulism talk has me nervous. The kimchi has a normal > amount of salt in it, and there aren't many dried anchovies in it. Does > salt prevent it? Should I worry and cook it in soup? > > > Deanna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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