Re: sourdough newbie questions

[Guest guest]

I am sooo glad you posted this!!  I also did that recipe and was overwhelmed

with bread, felt it was too dense and the crust too hard.  I also used glass

pans.  So, it's not just you!

I have done all the other things you mentioned and the ketchup recipe. 

I hope we get some " clear " answers!

~~

________________________________

From: Lidia Seebeck <lidia@...>

I made the starter from rye, all fresh ground, and the add-flour for the

bread proper from freshly ground spelt. I tried to stay very true to the

recipe in " Traditions " . Salt used was Celtic, water filtered. I'm using

glass for all of my bowls and pans. I proof in the oven with humidity,

overnight so it doesn't fall.

Overall it's not bad if very dense, more than I expected it to be. I cannot

do " cheaters " style loaves as I am also cooking for a friend who has to

stay away from modern wheat. (it's not celiac, it's something else) I do

seem to be getting approximate doubling of loaves in 6-8 hours proofing

time. It's not doughy in the center although it is quite moist (but with

visible crumb structure). It does seem to have a very hard crust, perhaps

almost too hard. Could this be from using glass bread pans? I know I can't

use metal. Is there a way to ease that effect?

..

[Guest guest]

Hi and welcome. You seem to be doing brilliantly. I find recipes are

exhausting and nailbiting first time around and then suddenly somehow

get easier. It's as if the stuff knows when it's dealing with a novice

and acts up. So probably the most important piece of advice is -- don't

give up.

I'm not a fount of knowledge on fermenting but I make my own sourdough

so here goes...

a) I think rye does have a hard crust. Mine is very damp in the middle

but it can have quite a good structure ie it's bubbly inside but not

domed. -- recognise that?

why can't you use metal pans? Does she say not? I do mine on the

hottest possible temperature for 15 mins plus 45 mins turned down a bit.

(Gas Mark 9 turned down to 7 if you are on gas). I'm using metal pans.

Glass is a poor conductor of heat.

c) the extra bread should keep and improve -- it shouldn't mould. Rye

dries a little and improves as it ages.

d) starters are quite robust and can manage unfed. If you get massive

amounts of starter you can put more into your bread -- or even throw it

away. Give it to the birds, put it on the compost heap. Make pancakes

out of it? Starter will live for a couple of weeks unfed in the fridge

and then revive when given more flour. Cover it up so that it doesn't

dry out. In your shoes I would make pancakes out of some, feed the rest

and put it in the fridge until you need it again.

e) I work with 50g starter to which I add 150g rye flour and 300g water

and leave overnight to form a production sourdough. I then take out 50g

to be the new starter. To make one loaf I take the remainder ie 450g of

production sourdough, and add 330g of rye flour, 200g of water. Mix,

pour into pan, cover (see below) and leave until convenient (about 6-8

hours) cook as above. I'm sorry I cannot translate into cups.

f) I've just reread your mail and I'm a bit concerned that all this is

exhausting for you. It should be dead easy. You can proof by wrapping

the pan in a polythene bag and leaving it on the counter. If the dough

is too cold it will rise more slowly is all and if it is too hot it will

rise more quickly -- mine never overflows because the rye structure is

too loose and sloppy and just can't climb over the sides. As the little

yeasts breath they seem to give off water and the polythene bag keeps

the air nice and damp. You don't need to entirely wrap it up -- just

open the bag and turn it over on top of the loaf and then make sure it

stands up and won't touch the dough as it rises.

Is any of that helpful?

Sally

Lidia Seebeck wrote:

> Hi all, I'm a new member and fairly new to making fermented foods. I picked

> up " Nourishing Traditions " about two months ago and I've been trying to

> make some of the recipes in there with some decent level of success.

>

>

>

> I've done some of the fermented veggies-ginger carrots, sauerkraut, salsa,

> beets.

>

>

>

> Then there is the soutdough.

>

>

>

> I made the starter from rye, all fresh ground, and the add-flour for the

> bread proper from freshly ground spelt. I tried to stay very true to the

> recipe in " Traditions " . Salt used was Celtic, water filtered. I'm using

> glass for all of my bowls and pans. I proof in the oven with humidity,

> overnight so it doesn't fall.

>

>

>

> Overall it's not bad if very dense, more than I expected it to be. I cannot

> do " cheaters " style loaves as I am also cooking for a friend who has to

> stay away from modern wheat. (it's not celiac, it's something else) I do

> seem to be getting approximate doubling of loaves in 6-8 hours proofing

> time. It's not doughy in the center although it is quite moist (but with

> visible crumb structure). It does seem to have a very hard crust, perhaps

> almost too hard. Could this be from using glass bread pans? I know I can't

> use metal. Is there a way to ease that effect?

>

>

>

> Also I have a question about starter. This recipe is very large and makes

> 5-6 loaves at once. For the effort it takes I am grateful I am not doing it

> everyday. But now I have about 4 loaves left over. Perhaps I should have

> given another couple to my friend, but she is on vacation this coming week

> so I didn't want to overburden her. It appears I do not need to make more

> bread for a while. My starter has now been going for a little over 2 weeks.

> Can I refrigerate safely now, or do I need to keep feeding it? If so, can I

> get away with reduced amounts of feeding? What do I store starter in?

>

>

>

> I hope there is someone here with a bit more experience here who can help

> just a touch.

>

>

>

> Lidia

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ok, I don't have your recipe but I do make sour dough regularly and it

is sooo easy. I have been making my own bread using my wheat grinder

to get fresh flour now for 16 years! I have only been doing sour

dough for about a year. I will try to shed some light on this subject

to the best of my ability. The thing I will struggle with is that I

don't have your recipe to look at and when I cook I rarely use exact

measurements. I do know that you can use several different grains in

the making of any kind of bread...but you will have to get used to

that grains idiosyncrasies. Spelt when I use it always seems to need

more of the flour than reg. wheat. So that said there will

differences depending on the grain that you use. Also the sour dough

bread will naturally be a denser bread and crustier bread due to the

breaking down of the flour because of the natural fermentation

process. And you must understand that often the commercial breads add

many things to make it light and fluffy. So when making your own

breads there is going to be difference. Your recipe is making an

abundance of bread. You can either cut the recipe in half or sour

dough bread stays excellent for a very long time. It is actually

recommended that you not put it in a plastic bag for 3 or so days so

that it can continue in the fermentation process. After the 3 days

you can bag it an put it in the freezer. There it will stay very good

for some time. To use you just thaw and I like to pop it into the

oven for a short time to heat it up..makes for great just out of the

oven bread taste! Now that I have written all that I don't think I

will try to write my recipe down because I think it will be too

confusing since I don't measure things. Let me know if you have

further questions.

Blessings all!

in TN

>

> I am sooo glad you posted this!!  I also did that recipe and was

overwhelmed with bread, felt it was too dense and the crust too hard. 

I also used glass pans.  So, it's not just you!

>

> I have done all the other things you mentioned and the ketchup recipe. 

>

> I hope we get some " clear " answers!

>

> ~~

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Lidia Seebeck <lidia@...>

>

>

>

>

> I made the starter from rye, all fresh ground, and the add-flour for the

> bread proper from freshly ground spelt. I tried to stay very true to the

> recipe in " Traditions " . Salt used was Celtic, water filtered. I'm using

> glass for all of my bowls and pans. I proof in the oven with humidity,

> overnight so it doesn't fall.

>

> Overall it's not bad if very dense, more than I expected it to be. I

cannot

> do " cheaters " style loaves as I am also cooking for a friend who has to

> stay away from modern wheat. (it's not celiac, it's something else) I do

> seem to be getting approximate doubling of loaves in 6-8 hours proofing

> time. It's not doughy in the center although it is quite moist (but with

> visible crumb structure). It does seem to have a very hard crust,

perhaps

> almost too hard. Could this be from using glass bread pans? I know I

can't

> use metal. Is there a way to ease that effect?

>

>

> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi there, I have been lurking but have not posted yet. I love all

things fermented, veggies, breads, beverages,etc. and hope to learn

lots more from this group. I have been making sourdough bread for a

while now and will add my comments.

STARTER: it can keep in the fridge for quite some time. I know

people who don't bake all summer long and manage to revive the

starter in the fall. I have never tried that long. I keep my starter

in a glass jar and take it out and add rye flour to get it active for

baking. If left in the fridge for more then a week it can develop a

dark layer of liquid. Just throw this liquid out and feed as usual.

I did not start my own starter but rather got some from a family that

has used it for many years.

BREAD: I also found the NT recipe too big. I have been using a

revised version of the RYE BREAD in Wild Fermentation. (Sandor

E.Katz). Rye has the wonderful property that it does NOT need

kneading. (a pentose/sugar in the grain that traps the air??? )

Whereas spelt, kamut and wheat do need kneading to develop the

gluten. Most recipes add some white flour to the sourdough bread. I

also wanted to bake with 100% home ground grains and found Sandor's

to be the only recipe to use 100% rye. I bake only one loaf at a

time and use 5 cups of flour for this with 2 fermentations of about 8

- 12 hours each. It is a fairly dense but delicious loaf. In the

summer I had some problems but we are back on track now.

OVEN TEMP: I also use a high temperature. Preheat the oven to 475F

and when I add the bread I reduce heat to 425 and bake for a total of

50 min. Throwing a quarter or half cup of water to the bottom of the

oven adds moisture to the baking. Open and close oven door quickly to

avoid heat loss.

BREAD PAN: I use a Pampered Chef clay bread pan. It is heavy and

beautiful. I oil it with coconut oil and nothing ever sticks. (well,

banana bread sometimes does) Wash without soap and after a while it

becomes quite non-stick.

KEEP NOTES: I kept notes for the first while to develop the recipe

that will work for my environment and the flour that I use. THere is

a huge range of qualities, properties, moisture, temperature, etc.

GOOD LUCK and persevere. There are no failed loaves, just lessons

learned for the next loaf. As the previous poster said, the compost

heap or the chickens will always enjoy those other loaves.

Sourdough bread with lots of butter, yummy!

Happy baking,