Guest guest Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 The medical establishment consisting of insurance companies, drug companies, medical schools, hospitals, doctors and dentists are as much a business as any other business in the world. They have a tremendous lobby in Washington and promote their own interests every chance they get. They see any use or adherance to alternative medicine as competition, and will do or say anything they can to discredit their competition. People have to stop thinking their doctors are totallly altruistic and will always do what's best for them. It is simply not true, not since Rockefeller took over the the medical schools and the rest of the medical community and turned it all around to a " for profit " business. If you don't believe me, check it out on google. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Trish <fielddot@...> Subject: Re:Salt hypothyroidism Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 2:00 AM In my view (belief) it is igorant to call Energy Medicine and/or Acupuncture 'Alternative Medicine' since it should accurately be described as Traditional Medicine. I like Traditional Medicine ...it has thousands of years of experience and looks at the totality rather than isolated bits and pieces. Mother Nature provided humankind with an astonishingly amazing experience and even now provides every single remedy we could ever need ...but humankind is incredibly ignorant and look what we have done ...slash, burn and kill ...rape, pillage and take ... Regarding the entity known as Oz ...it may be that: * He is correct regarding the bleaching of salt * He is a cany business person apart from being a doctor (they are not mutually exclusive) and is making the very best in financial terms with regards to his practice. His ethics however cannot accuratley be judged from a Wiki article, I would have to know someone face to face or at least have watched loads of vid to get close to understanding his ethical nature. The implication could be drawn that because he is a cany businessman his ethical nature would be questionable, vested self-interest and all that. That seems to be a view that a lot of people take ...particuarly with regard to Mercola.com (a very good site IMB) but as far as I am concerned that is just their subjectivity. Passive-aggressive delivery comes to my mind when I read a lot of your posts , maybe that is what some people respond to ...the difference is that as a man you will amost certainly be communicating on a differenct vibe ...women often pick up on subtleties and the " unsaid " ...the body language and so on. Trouble is that on the internet you cannot see the body language and all sorts of situations may arise because of that! Trish > > Well, I might or might not; I'm pretty hard-headed you know! [ggg] Do > you have a quote from him? > > Among his many applauds I found a couple of things questioned by some: > . > . > > > > As /The New York Times > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times>/ has explained, Oz > > is a " spokesman and adviser " for the website, RealAge > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealAge>.com, which the paper has > > heavily criticized for its pharmaceutical marketing practices. The > > site solicits medical information from visitors, ostensibly to > > determine a visitor�s " biological age " and then uses the visitor's > > medical profile for pharmaceutical marketing purposes. As /The Times/ > > reporter explained the significance of this fact: " While few people > > would fill out a detailed questionnaire about their health and hand it > > over to a drug company looking for suggestions for new medications, > > that is essentially what RealAge is doing. " ^[8] > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Oz#cite_note-7> > > > > > > Alternative medicine > > > > Oz and his wife, a reiki <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiki> > > practitioner, are believers in alternative medicine > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine>. Some conventional > > medical practitioners allege that Oz may be promoting unproven and > > potentially harmful alternative medicine practices on /The Oprah > > Winfrey Show/. Appearing in surgical scrubs > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrubs_%28clothing%29> on the show's set > > in Chicago, Oz has promoted self-described energy based practices > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine> and acupuncture > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture> on the show.^[9] > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Oz#cite_note-8> ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 Well, as I said I recognize that I am " hard-headed " in that I hold my opinions very firmly. However, my opinions on factual matters can generally be supported by [are you ready? {ggg}] credible evidence. Subjective opinions are just that; subjective. For example: I tried to make clear that my " suggestion " regarding a possible placebo effect in the Armour reformulation matter was a statement of opinion; apparently I completely failed in that. OTOH some people just do not read very carefully matters that are clearly stated. The same person who repeatedly made snide remarks about my remarkable biochemical knowledge [which I do not have nor have I ever claimed to have] also did not see the words that indicated I was making a SUGGESTION; _not_ stating an established fact. I also seem to remember using the qualifier " possible " ; not sure about that and it's not important enough to me to bother looking it up. I don't know much about Dr. Oz; but I know enough that I wouldn't take my cat to him; much less a family member or myself. YMMV. As I stated, " Among his many applauds... " indicates there's a lot of positive material on the net about him. BUT: There's quite a bit of negative. My opinion [and that's all it is] is based upon things he wrote or said. I see a well educated man who may [by some measures at least] be intelligent or even brilliant. But I also see the possibility of a major ego [or Dr. God] problem, in that the alternative practices he supports are totally lacking in the credible support that his education should have taught him to seek. Possibly a psychological bent that could cause someone to get to the point that they think that by wishing something were so makes it so; but here more speculation. The ethical complaints would fit in with someone who thinks he is above both physical laws and moral or legal laws. Calling alternative medicine alternative isn't ignorant, it's simply a way to differentiate it from conventional [or allopathic] medicine. It's pretty much a matter of personal choice as to whether you use " traditional " or " alternative " . In the cases where alternative practices are relatively new it's probably more accurate to say " alternative " than " traditional " . For example, the doctor who killed a woman with infusions of bicarbonate of soda in treating her cancer was using an alternative procedure with no tradition behind it before his own use for that purpose began. To apply " traditional medicine " to such would IMHO be a travesty; and a total disrespect to " traditional " medicine. You mention women and men in communication. The more I learn about women the less I know about women, so maybe there's sometimes a male-female communication problem there. However, AFAIK I probably come across to men about the same as I do to women [???]. But I cannot discount the fact that I've been immersed in a culture for well over half a century that fails to equally respect and honor women and men. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3ASalt> trishruk > <trishruk> > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:00 am (PST) > > > > > > In my view (belief) it is igorant to call Energy Medicine and/or > Acupuncture 'Alternative Medicine' since it should accurately be > described as Traditional Medicine. > > I like Traditional Medicine ...it has thousands of years of experience > and looks at the totality rather than isolated bits and pieces. Mother > Nature provided humankind with an astonishingly amazing experience and > even now provides every single remedy we could ever need ...but > humankind is incredibly ignorant and look what we have done ...slash, > burn and kill ...rape, pillage and take ... > > Regarding the entity known as Oz ...it may be that: > > * He is correct regarding the bleaching of salt > > * He is a cany business person apart from being a doctor (they are not > mutually exclusive) and is making the very best in financial terms > with regards to his practice. His ethics however cannot accuratley be > judged from a Wiki article, I would have to know someone face to face > or at least have watched loads of vid to get close to understanding > his ethical nature. > > The implication could be drawn that because he is a cany businessman > his ethical nature would be questionable, vested self-interest and all > that. That seems to be a view that a lot of people take ...particuarly > with regard to Mercola.com (a very good site IMB) but as far as I am > concerned that is just their subjectivity. > > Passive-aggressive delivery comes to my mind when I read a lot of your > posts , maybe that is what some people respond to ...the > difference is that as a man you will amost certainly be communicating > on a differenct vibe ...women often pick up on subtleties and the > " unsaid " ...the body language and so on. Trouble is that on the > internet you cannot see the body language and all sorts of situations > may arise because of that! > > Trish > > > > > > Well, I might or might not; I'm pretty hard-headed you know! [ggg] Do > > you have a quote from him? > > > > Among his many applauds I found a couple of things questioned by some: > > . > > . > > > > > > As /The New York Times > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times>>/ has explained, Oz > > > is a " spokesman and adviser " for the website, RealAge > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealAge > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealAge>>.com, which the paper has > > > heavily criticized for its pharmaceutical marketing practices. The > > > site solicits medical information from visitors, ostensibly to > > > determine a visitor�s " biological age " and then uses the visitor's > > > medical profile for pharmaceutical marketing purposes. As /The Times/ > > > reporter explained the significance of this fact: " While few people > > > would fill out a detailed questionnaire about their health and > hand it > > > over to a drug company looking for suggestions for new medications, > > > that is essentially what RealAge is doing. " ^[8] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 , have you ever tried ANY form of alternative medicine; taking vitamins and/or herbs, accupressure, accupuncture, yoga, organic food, energy healing of any type, meditation, etc.? <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re:Salt hypothyroidism Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 10:31 AM Well, as I said I recognize that I am " hard-headed " in that I hold my opinions very firmly. However, my opinions on factual matters can generally be supported by [are you ready? {ggg}] credible evidence. Subjective opinions are just that; subjective. For example: I tried to make clear that my " suggestion " regarding a possible placebo effect in the Armour reformulation matter was a statement of opinion; apparently I completely failed in that. OTOH some people just do not read very carefully matters that are clearly stated. The same person who repeatedly made snide remarks about my remarkable biochemical knowledge [which I do not have nor have I ever claimed to have] also did not see the words that indicated I was making a SUGGESTION; _not_ stating an established fact. I also seem to remember using the qualifier " possible " ; not sure about that and it's not important enough to me to bother looking it up. I don't know much about Dr. Oz; but I know enough that I wouldn't take my cat to him; much less a family member or myself. YMMV. As I stated, " Among his many applauds... " indicates there's a lot of positive material on the net about him. BUT: There's quite a bit of negative. My opinion [and that's all it is] is based upon things he wrote or said. I see a well educated man who may [by some measures at least] be intelligent or even brilliant. But I also see the possibility of a major ego [or Dr. God] problem, in that the alternative practices he supports are totally lacking in the credible support that his education should have taught him to seek. Possibly a psychological bent that could cause someone to get to the point that they think that by wishing something were so makes it so; but here more speculation. The ethical complaints would fit in with someone who thinks he is above both physical laws and moral or legal laws. Calling alternative medicine alternative isn't ignorant, it's simply a way to differentiate it from conventional [or allopathic] medicine. It's pretty much a matter of personal choice as to whether you use " traditional " or " alternative " . In the cases where alternative practices are relatively new it's probably more accurate to say " alternative " than " traditional " . For example, the doctor who killed a woman with infusions of bicarbonate of soda in treating her cancer was using an alternative procedure with no tradition behind it before his own use for that purpose began. To apply " traditional medicine " to such would IMHO be a travesty; and a total disrespect to " traditional " medicine. You mention women and men in communication. The more I learn about women the less I know about women, so maybe there's sometimes a male-female communication problem there. However, AFAIK I probably come across to men about the same as I do to women [???]. But I cannot discount the fact that I've been immersed in a culture for well over half a century that fails to equally respect and honor women and men. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3ASalt> trishruk > <trishruk> > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:00 am (PST) > > > > > > In my view (belief) it is igorant to call Energy Medicine and/or > Acupuncture 'Alternative Medicine' since it should accurately be > described as Traditional Medicine. > > I like Traditional Medicine ...it has thousands of years of experience > and looks at the totality rather than isolated bits and pieces. Mother > Nature provided humankind with an astonishingly amazing experience and > even now provides every single remedy we could ever need ...but > humankind is incredibly ignorant and look what we have done ...slash, > burn and kill ...rape, pillage and take ... > > Regarding the entity known as Oz ...it may be that: > > * He is correct regarding the bleaching of salt > > * He is a cany business person apart from being a doctor (they are not > mutually exclusive) and is making the very best in financial terms > with regards to his practice. His ethics however cannot accuratley be > judged from a Wiki article, I would have to know someone face to face > or at least have watched loads of vid to get close to understanding > his ethical nature. > > The implication could be drawn that because he is a cany businessman > his ethical nature would be questionable, vested self-interest and all > that. That seems to be a view that a lot of people take ...particuarly > with regard to Mercola.com (a very good site IMB) but as far as I am > concerned that is just their subjectivity. > > Passive-aggressive delivery comes to my mind when I read a lot of your > posts , maybe that is what some people respond to ...the > difference is that as a man you will amost certainly be communicating > on a differenct vibe ...women often pick up on subtleties and the > " unsaid " ...the body language and so on. Trouble is that on the > internet you cannot see the body language and all sorts of situations > may arise because of that! > > Trish > > > > > > Well, I might or might not; I'm pretty hard-headed you know! [ggg] Do > > you have a quote from him? > > > > Among his many applauds I found a couple of things questioned by some: > > . > > . > > > > > > As /The New York Times > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times>>/ has explained, Oz > > > is a " spokesman and adviser " for the website, RealAge > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealAge > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealAge>>.com, which the paper has > > > heavily criticized for its pharmaceutical marketing practices. The > > > site solicits medical information from visitors, ostensibly to > > > determine a visitor�s " biological age " and then uses the visitor's > > > medical profile for pharmaceutical marketing purposes. As /The Times/ > > > reporter explained the significance of this fact: " While few people > > > would fill out a detailed questionnaire about their health and > hand it > > > over to a drug company looking for suggestions for new medications, > > > that is essentially what RealAge is doing. " ^[8] ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 , I don't agree that it's pretty much a matter of personal choice ...your comment suggests a polarity ...an " either " " or " situation ...there is Traditional Medicine, there is Alternative Medicine and there is Allopathic medicine ...I still maintain it is ignorant to label Traditional Medicine as Alternative Medicine when it is not ...as you point out Dr Simoncini is NOT using Traditional medicine as far as I am concerned he practices Alternative Medicine. Trish > > Well, as I said I recognize that I am " hard-headed " in that I hold my > opinions very firmly. However, my opinions on factual matters can > generally be supported by [are you ready? {ggg}] credible evidence. > Subjective opinions are just that; subjective. For example: I tried to > make clear that my " suggestion " regarding a possible placebo effect in > the Armour reformulation matter was a statement of opinion; apparently I > completely failed in that. OTOH some people just do not read very > carefully matters that are clearly stated. The same person who > repeatedly made snide remarks about my remarkable biochemical knowledge > [which I do not have nor have I ever claimed to have] also did not see > the words that indicated I was making a SUGGESTION; _not_ stating an > established fact. I also seem to remember using the qualifier > " possible " ; not sure about that and it's not important enough to me to > bother looking it up. > > I don't know much about Dr. Oz; but I know enough that I wouldn't take > my cat to him; much less a family member or myself. YMMV. As I stated, > " Among his many applauds... " indicates there's a lot of positive > material on the net about him. BUT: There's quite a bit of negative. > My opinion [and that's all it is] is based upon things he wrote or > said. I see a well educated man who may [by some measures at least] be > intelligent or even brilliant. But I also see the possibility of a > major ego [or Dr. God] problem, in that the alternative practices he > supports are totally lacking in the credible support that his education > should have taught him to seek. Possibly a psychological bent that > could cause someone to get to the point that they think that by wishing > something were so makes it so; but here more speculation. The ethical > complaints would fit in with someone who thinks he is above both > physical laws and moral or legal laws. > > Calling alternative medicine alternative isn't ignorant, it's simply a > way to differentiate it from conventional [or allopathic] medicine. > It's pretty much a matter of personal choice as to whether you use > " traditional " or " alternative " . In the cases where alternative > practices are relatively new it's probably more accurate to say > " alternative " than " traditional " . For example, the doctor who killed a > woman with infusions of bicarbonate of soda in treating her cancer was > using an alternative procedure with no tradition behind it before his > own use for that purpose began. To apply " traditional medicine " to such > would IMHO be a travesty; and a total disrespect to " traditional " medicine. > > You mention women and men in communication. The more I learn about > women the less I know about women, so maybe there's sometimes a > male-female communication problem there. However, AFAIK I probably come > across to men about the same as I do to women [???]. But I cannot > discount the fact that I've been immersed in a culture for well over > half a century that fails to equally respect and honor women and men. > > Regards, > > . > . > > > > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3ASalt> trishruk > > <trishruk> > > > > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:00 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > In my view (belief) it is igorant to call Energy Medicine and/or > > Acupuncture 'Alternative Medicine' since it should accurately be > > described as Traditional Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Hi, Roni. Please see responses below... .. .. > > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Salt> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:34 am (PST) > > > > I'm curious, are you aware that diabetes was not considered an > illness, but just a syndrome because they didn't have a repeatable > test for it? .. .. There was a time [all of human history until the last few dozens of tens of years] when the nature and causes of many if not most illnesses were not known. .. .. .. .. > > It wasn't until they developed the blood sugar test that diabetes > became an illness. .. .. I think you should have " recognized as " before " an illness " ??? .. .. > Think of how many people must have suffered and died before the > medical profession recognized them as " credible! " .. .. Throughout about 99.999...% [MOL] of human history humans have recovered [or not] without the aid of modern medicine. And too often in spite of. I don't see what their being " credible " has to do with it. .. .. > > In the case of inanimate categories of anything, the credible evidence > theory is fine, .. .. Evidence is credible [or not] in the scientific sense whenever research is done on any subject, whether human or inanimate. .. .. > but in > the case of human suffering, the dry, aloof attitude of doctors, to > me, is unacceptable. Unless they know for a fact that a patient is in > there to score drugs and little else, a patient should be respected > and his complaints taken seriously. .. I agree that patient's complaints should be taken seriously, along with any other evidence that will help to heal them. And then the patient should be treated using the best evidence available. If the patient has breast cancer I don't want some quack killing them with an infusion of some substance for which there is zero credible evidence of its effacy for same. Unfortunately we have to accept that medical science is not perfect, and is unlikely to be any time in the near future. If you're saying every patient [except drug addicts] should be believed in every case then I don't agree. Most all of us have been patients at one time or another and some of us make mistakes. And some have been known to lie. .. .. > > <>Roni > Immortality exists! > It's called knowledge! > > Just because something isn't seen > doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > Subject: Re: Salt > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 9:28 PM > > I know some of you may scream if I say " credible evidence " one more > time. So here it is: Whenever any form of naturopathic medicine is > supported by credible evidence in a peer reviewed venue it will begin to > have some credibility in the minds of those whose minds function like > mine does. Basically the results will have to exceed chance or > placebo. Until then it's a " maybe it does, maybe it doesn't " situation. > > Well, that's actually in the best of cases. In far too many it's a case > of " it d@mned well DOES NOT work as advertised; it's contradicted by far > too much credible contrary evidence. > > Regards, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 It's not surprising at all that Chuck would catch the numerous errors there; given that they're so numerous that even I could see a lot to them. That wouldn't establish that any other specific statement is in error; only that the track record of the site is very poor WRT accuracy. At this point I'm convinced that most probably the vast majority of table salt is unbleached; and possibly all of it. Beyond that it doesn't really concern me a great deal. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Salt> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:36 am (PST) > > > > Chuck beat to you belittling this site. LOL > > <>Roni > Immortality exists! > It's called knowledge! > > Just because something isn't seen > doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > Subject: Re: Salt > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 9:44 PM > > I found this quote: > . > . > > Then processing chemicals are added such as Silico Aluminate, > > Potassium Iodide, Tri-calcium Phosphate, Magnesium Carbonate, Sodium > > bicarbonate, and yellow prussiate of soda just to name a few. These > > are added to bleach the salt,... > . > . > I'm no chemist not do I play one on tv, but I wonder which of these > materials are used to bleach salt. Chlorine bleach is made from > chlorine [surprise!] and the hydrogen from water [i think]. It doesn't > appear that any of the above qualify??? > > Incidentally: That page has a lot of very definite BS; simply > inaccurate statements. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Hi, Roni. IMHO it's probably best to assume that no one is altruistic. You're far less likely to be disappointed. About 99.99...% of what is claimed to be altruism could IMHO be better described as something else. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Salt> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:45 am (PST) > > > > The medical establishment consisting of insurance companies, drug > companies, medical schools, hospitals, doctors and dentists are as > much a business as any other business in the world. They have a > tremendous lobby in Washington and promote their own interests every > chance they get. > > They see any use or adherance to alternative medicine as competition, > and will do or say anything they can to discredit their competition. > People have to stop thinking their doctors are totallly altruistic and > will always do what's best for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Roni, You wrote: > ...What do you think of the latest admonition from the medical world that > people should not eat hardly any salt even if they don't have high blood > pressure because they believe it is > bad for the veins and arteries? Lots of studies have indicated a range of risks with excess salt. I am more skeptical about dangers of more moderate levels, say within a factor of 2 of the dietary guidelines (5.8 g of salt per day in the U.S.). There are too many conflicting studies at that level. However, whether you believe the warnings or not, kosher and sea salt is still mostly sodium chloride. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Trish, You wrote: > > What is your opinion about silico aluminate please ...in terms of > whether it is desirable/undesirable for it to be in the body. First, this describes a family of chemicals, not just a uniquely defined one. None of it is in any of the salt we buy, so it may not be all that common an additive. It appears to be one of many chemicals that can be acutely toxic but which the body can handle in small amounts. I know it is an irritant to some people, so it is probably like sulfites or iodine, to which some are sensitive, but most are not. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Of course some patients make mistakes and some lie. However, until and unless these things become apparent, each patient deserves respect. I was not talking about the dawn of man era of illness. I was talking about the so called modern era of medicine, which was not that long ago. Let's face it, even with extremely intelligent, respectful doctors, there are times that they just don't know. For those times it would be nice for them to acknowledge that. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > Subject: Re: Salt > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 9:28 PM > > I know some of you may scream if I say " credible evidence " one more > time. So here it is: Whenever any form of naturopathic medicine is > supported by credible evidence in a peer reviewed venue it will begin to > have some credibility in the minds of those whose minds function like > mine does. Basically the results will have to exceed chance or > placebo. Until then it's a " maybe it does, maybe it doesn't " situation. > > Well, that's actually in the best of cases. In far too many it's a case > of " it d@mned well DOES NOT work as advertised; it's contradicted by far > too much credible contrary evidence. > > Regards, > ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 That was exactly my point, . Maybe you could read my post again if you haven't already deleted it. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Salt hypothyroidism Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 1:26 PM Hi, Roni. IMHO it's probably best to assume that no one is altruistic. You're far less likely to be disappointed. About 99.99...% of what is claimed to be altruism could IMHO be better described as something else. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Salt> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:45 am (PST) > > > > The medical establishment consisting of insurance companies, drug > companies, medical schools, hospitals, doctors and dentists are as > much a business as any other business in the world. They have a > tremendous lobby in Washington and promote their own interests every > chance they get. > > They see any use or adherance to alternative medicine as competition, > and will do or say anything they can to discredit their competition. > People have to stop thinking their doctors are totallly altruistic and > will always do what's best for them. ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I agree with you. I think a moderate amount of salt is probably good for us. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > ...What do you think of the latest admonition from the medical world that > people should not eat hardly any salt even if they don't have high blood > pressure because they believe it is > bad for the veins and arteries? Lots of studies have indicated a range of risks with excess salt. I am more skeptical about dangers of more moderate levels, say within a factor of 2 of the dietary guidelines (5.8 g of salt per day in the U.S.). There are too many conflicting studies at that level. However, whether you believe the warnings or not, kosher and sea salt is still mostly sodium chloride. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 If you body chemistry is working properly, things like excess Vit-C, calcium and salt should be thrown off. If they are not, you need to fix the chemistry, not cut the intake. Read Your Body's Many Cries for Water by F Batmanghelidji > > I agree with you. I think a moderate amount of salt is probably good for us. > > > <>Roni snip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 How you choose to slice the pie is a matter of choice. In the US mainstream medicine is allopathic medicine for the most part. Anything else is an alternative to that, including " traditional " . But you, having choice, are perfectly free to call it whatever you like. I doubt anyone here is ignorant to the existence and general nature of " traditional " medicine. Modern alternatives are, as I pointed out and you agree not traditional. .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3ASalt> trishruk > <trishruk> > > > Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:39 am (PST) > > > > > > , I don't agree that it's pretty much a matter of personal choice > ...your comment suggests a polarity ...an " either " " or " situation > ...there is Traditional Medicine, there is Alternative Medicine and > there is Allopathic medicine ...I still maintain it is ignorant to > label Traditional Medicine as Alternative Medicine when it is not > ...as you point out Dr Simoncini is NOT using Traditional medicine as > far as I am concerned he practices Alternative Medicine. > > Trish > > > > > > Well, as I said I recognize that I am " hard-headed " in that I hold my > > opinions very firmly. However, my opinions on factual matters can > > generally be supported by [are you ready? {ggg}] credible evidence. > > Subjective opinions are just that; subjective. For example: I tried to > > make clear that my " suggestion " regarding a possible placebo effect in > > the Armour reformulation matter was a statement of opinion; > apparently I > > completely failed in that. OTOH some people just do not read very > > carefully matters that are clearly stated. The same person who > > repeatedly made snide remarks about my remarkable biochemical knowledge > > [which I do not have nor have I ever claimed to have] also did not see > > the words that indicated I was making a SUGGESTION; _not_ stating an > > established fact. I also seem to remember using the qualifier > > " possible " ; not sure about that and it's not important enough to me to > > bother looking it up. > > > > I don't know much about Dr. Oz; but I know enough that I wouldn't take > > my cat to him; much less a family member or myself. YMMV. As I stated, > > " Among his many applauds... " indicates there's a lot of positive > > material on the net about him. BUT: There's quite a bit of negative. > > My opinion [and that's all it is] is based upon things he wrote or > > said. I see a well educated man who may [by some measures at least] be > > intelligent or even brilliant. But I also see the possibility of a > > major ego [or Dr. God] problem, in that the alternative practices he > > supports are totally lacking in the credible support that his education > > should have taught him to seek. Possibly a psychological bent that > > could cause someone to get to the point that they think that by wishing > > something were so makes it so; but here more speculation. The ethical > > complaints would fit in with someone who thinks he is above both > > physical laws and moral or legal laws. > > > > Calling alternative medicine alternative isn't ignorant, it's simply a > > way to differentiate it from conventional [or allopathic] medicine. > > It's pretty much a matter of personal choice as to whether you use > > " traditional " or " alternative " . In the cases where alternative > > practices are relatively new it's probably more accurate to say > > " alternative " than " traditional " . For example, the doctor who killed a > > woman with infusions of bicarbonate of soda in treating her cancer was > > using an alternative procedure with no tradition behind it before his > > own use for that purpose began. To apply " traditional medicine " to such > > would IMHO be a travesty; and a total disrespect to " traditional " > medicine. > > > > You mention women and men in communication. The more I learn about > > women the less I know about women, so maybe there's sometimes a > > male-female communication problem there. However, AFAIK I probably come > > across to men about the same as I do to women [???]. But I cannot > > discount the fact that I've been immersed in a culture for well over > > half a century that fails to equally respect and honor women and men. > > > > Regards, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 A lot of what doctors do IMHO depends upon the placebo effect. To project confidence aids in that, and to project uncertainty harms it. Personally I think I would prefer openness and honesty as you suggest. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Salt> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:32 pm (PST) > > > > Of course some patients make mistakes and some lie. However, until and > unless these > things become apparent, each patient deserves respect. > > I was not talking about the dawn of man era of illness. I was talking > about the so called > modern era of medicine, which was not that long ago. > > Let's face it, even with extremely intelligent, respectful doctors, > there are times that they just don't know. For those times it would be > nice for them to acknowledge that. > > <>Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2010 Report Share Posted February 18, 2010 Thanks for your answer. I did a bit more googling and found that it is pretty common for it to be added to salt ...I would say you are lucky (or informed) the salt you buy doesn't have it. Aluminium and brain damage are connected in my mind and is best avoided in ANY amount ..a bit like radiation ...I would rather not add anything to the amount I've accummulated. Trish > > > > What is your opinion about silico aluminate please ...in terms of > > whether it is desirable/undesirable for it to be in the body. > > First, this describes a family of chemicals, not just a uniquely defined > one. None of it is in any of the salt we buy, so it may not be all that > common an additive. > > It appears to be one of many chemicals that can be acutely toxic but > which the body can handle in small amounts. I know it is an irritant to > some people, so it is probably like sulfites or iodine, to which some > are sensitive, but most are not. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2010 Report Share Posted February 18, 2010 How one chooses to slice the pie is the point ...to honestly reflect what is available the pie should be sliced in (at least) three ways (Traditional, Allopathic, Alternative). To slice it otherwise is to represent and perpetuate the delusion that Traditional and Alternative are one in the same ...they are not but it is probably convenient for closed minds/establishment (and I'm not taking about you) to perpetuate the myth. Myth and truth are not synonymous. Trish > > How you choose to slice the pie is a matter of choice. In the US > mainstream medicine is allopathic medicine for the most part. Anything > else is an alternative to that, including " traditional " . But you, > having choice, are perfectly free to call it whatever you like. I doubt > anyone here is ignorant to the existence and general nature of > " traditional " medicine. Modern alternatives are, as I pointed out and > you agree not traditional. > > > . > . > > > > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3ASalt> trishruk > > <trishruk> > > > > > > Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:39 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > , I don't agree that it's pretty much a matter of personal choice > > ...your comment suggests a polarity ...an " either " " or " situation > > ...there is Traditional Medicine, there is Alternative Medicine and > > there is Allopathic medicine ...I still maintain it is ignorant to > > label Traditional Medicine as Alternative Medicine when it is not > > ...as you point out Dr Simoncini is NOT using Traditional medicine as > > far as I am concerned he practices Alternative Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2010 Report Share Posted February 18, 2010 O. K. guys, I think we've sliced this pie as much as it can handle. We have other issues that need to be discussed. Getting lost in discussing each others responses and then the responses to the responses is going no where. Let's please move on. Don't sent me arguments to this post, I'm just trying to elicit a little peace and camaraderie. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Trish <fielddot@...> Subject: Re:Salt hypothyroidism Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 2:14 AM How one chooses to slice the pie is the point ...to honestly reflect what is available the pie should be sliced in (at least) three ways (Traditional, Allopathic, Alternative). To slice it otherwise is to represent and perpetuate the delusion that Traditional and Alternative are one in the same ...they are not but it is probably convenient for closed minds/establishment (and I'm not taking about you) to perpetuate the myth. Myth and truth are not synonymous. Trish > > How you choose to slice the pie is a matter of choice. In the US > mainstream medicine is allopathic medicine for the most part. Anything > else is an alternative to that, including " traditional " . But you, > having choice, are perfectly free to call it whatever you like. I doubt > anyone here is ignorant to the existence and general nature of > " traditional " medicine. Modern alternatives are, as I pointed out and > you agree not traditional. > > > . > . > > > > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3ASalt> trishruk > > <trishruk> > > > > > > Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:39 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > , I don't agree that it's pretty much a matter of personal choice > > ...your comment suggests a polarity ...an " either " " or " situation > > ...there is Traditional Medicine, there is Alternative Medicine and > > there is Allopathic medicine ...I still maintain it is ignorant to > > label Traditional Medicine as Alternative Medicine when it is not > > ...as you point out Dr Simoncini is NOT using Traditional medicine as > > far as I am concerned he practices Alternative Medicine. ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Radiation is rather a broad term, and some of it certainly is to be avoided or limited. Other kinds are necessary; without the visual portion of the spectrum of em radiation we could not see. .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Salt> trishruk > <trishruk> > > > Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:06 am (PST) > > > > > > Thanks for your answer. > > I did a bit more googling and found that it is pretty common for it to > be added to salt ...I would say you are lucky (or informed) the salt > you buy doesn't have it. Aluminium and brain damage are connected in > my mind and is best avoided in ANY amount ..a bit like radiation ...I > would rather not add anything to the amount I've accummulated. > > Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Trish, You wrote: > ... Aluminium and brain damage are connected in my mind > and is best avoided in ANY amount ..a bit like radiation ...I would > rather not add anything to the amount I've accummulated. I quite disagree. I have been a Radiation Safety Officer for about 25 years, both in industry and for our university campus. Aluminum toxicity is slippery. Like calcium, and a number of other minerals, the amount that goes in your mouth does not seem correlated with the hazard. Rather, it is what your body does with it that matters. Something else makes whatever amount of aluminum is present, harmful or harmless. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Interesting. Do we know what that something else is that makes aluminum harmful or harmless? <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > ... Aluminium and brain damage are connected in my mind > and is best avoided in ANY amount ..a bit like radiation ...I would > rather not add anything to the amount I've accummulated. I quite disagree. I have been a Radiation Safety Officer for about 25 years, both in industry and for our university campus. Aluminum toxicity is slippery. Like calcium, and a number of other minerals, the amount that goes in your mouth does not seem correlated with the hazard. Rather, it is what your body does with it that matters. Something else makes whatever amount of aluminum is present, harmful or harmless. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Roni Molin wrote: > > > Interesting. Do we know what that something else is that makes aluminum > harmful or harmless? Albumin binding and renal insufficiency can cause it to concentrate to toxic levels. The real remaining mystery is its involvement at quite low levels in Alzheimer's. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Yes, I've heard about that. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > Interesting. Do we know what that something else is that makes aluminum > harmful or harmless? Albumin binding and renal insufficiency can cause it to concentrate to toxic levels. The real remaining mystery is its involvement at quite low levels in Alzheimer's. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I just had another thought. Is there a test for aluminum in the body? <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > Interesting. Do we know what that something else is that makes aluminum > harmful or harmless? Albumin binding and renal insufficiency can cause it to concentrate to toxic levels. The real remaining mystery is its involvement at quite low levels in Alzheimer's. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Roni Molin wrote: > > > I just had another thought. Is there a test for aluminum in the body? Sure, a simple chemical assay. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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