Re: Can my sauerkraut be salvaged?

February 17, 2011

Sounds like you have more experience with sauerkraut than I am, so I won't

even try to offer any serious advice. But, I am curious that you find the

" crunchy " texture of the kraut to be disagreeable. Of the two batches I've

made so far, both are much more crunchy than the stuff I used to eat as a

kid, and I like it that way. Mine have turned a yellowish color, but there

are strands of green. I assume the green is from the outer leaves.

The presence of vinegar suggests that acetobacter aceti bacteria had a part

in the fermentation. These convert ethanol and some sugar to acetic acid

(vinegar). Acetobacter aceti are aerobic, so you wouldn't expect them in an

anaerobic environment (like a sealed Harsch crock). Did you maintain the

water seal?

Of course, vinegar isn't poison, so even if you have vinegar, I'm guessing

the most important question is " do you like the result? " (i.e., does it

taste good?)

If the result is disagreeable, I would toss it, sterilize my equipment and

start over. Cabbage is cheap. If the result tastes good, I would eat it,

sterilize my equipment and start over with a new batch.

Again, I'm a rookie here. Others will offer more sage advice.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote:

>

> On 11/27/10 I prepared homemade sauerkraut for my 7.5 L Harsch crock. I

> followed the directions in the Klaus Kaufmann/Schoenick book, " Making

> Sauerkraut and Pickled Vegetables At Home " . I have prepared sauerkraut

> thrice before using the techniques in the book and have previously attained

>

> wonderful results. However, something is wrong with this batch. It is

> still quite crunchy and the cabbage hasn't turned from its original green

> color to the more yellowed color of sauerkraut. Should I just throw out

> this batch and start over again or is there something I can add to salvage

> it?

>

> Things that might have a bearing:

> Before making this batch, I threw out the prior batch of sauerkraut, still

> in the Harsch crock, because it had been sitting in the crock for maybe as

> long as a year. I had contractors remodeling my house and they moved the

> ice chest the crock was in to my basement, along with a lot of other boxes

> and things, and I couldn't find that ice chest for a long time. I washed

> the crock and weights thoroughly with hot water before using it for this

> batch. I don't believe I used soap. When I checked this new batch of

> sauerkraut a month ago, it had a strong vinegar odor.

>

> In preparing this batch, I used 2 homegrown organic green cabbages which

> had

> been in my refrigerator at least a month and also 2 non-organic cabbages

> from Safeway.

>

> I used celtic sea salt. I can't remember if I added any whey (from raw milk

>

> kefir). I may have added a small amount.

>

> I'm inclined to pitch this batch and start again when cabbages are

> hopefully

> cheaper priced for St. 's Day. What do you think?

>

> Lynn

>

--

Regards,

Harkness

February 17, 2011

I will add a little more. When I say " sterilize equipment, " I don't really

mean that. Sterilization literally means the total elimination of all

living microbes. That can be done, but it's not easy to do unless you have

specialized equipment. (e.g. autoclaves, etc.). In reality, the best

you can hope to do in a home environment is " sanitize " the equipment.

In the wine world, there is " cleaning " and " sanitizing. " Cleaning means

removing all residue (what you do to your pots and pans and dishes so that

they are spotless.) " Sanitizing " means killing off 99.999% of the remaining

microbes. That is usually done with heat or chemicals. Chlorine bleach is

an excellent sanitizer, but it has it's limitations. You should never

use chlorine bleach on any ferrous material, including stainless steel. You

should also carefully rinse all the chlorine away before you use the

equipment. You can boil clean equipment to sanitize it, but some equipment

won't stand up to the heat. If you have a wine making shop close by,

you will find a number of santizing chemicals there. The most common is

sodium metabisulfite. Another is povidone iodine. These chemicals

will wipe out most residual microbes and give your cultures a fighting

chance to dominate the fermentation.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Harkness <davidharkness@...>wrote:

> Sounds like you have more experience with sauerkraut than I am, so I won't

> even try to offer any serious advice. But, I am curious that you find the

> " crunchy " texture of the kraut to be disagreeable. Of the two batches I've

> made so far, both are much more crunchy than the stuff I used to eat as a

> kid, and I like it that way. Mine have turned a yellowish color, but there

> are strands of green. I assume the green is from the outer leaves.

>

> The presence of vinegar suggests that acetobacter aceti bacteria had a part

> in the fermentation. These convert ethanol and some sugar to acetic acid

> (vinegar). Acetobacter aceti are aerobic, so you wouldn't expect them in an

> anaerobic environment (like a sealed Harsch crock). Did you maintain the

> water seal?

> Of course, vinegar isn't poison, so even if you have vinegar, I'm guessing

> the most important question is " do you like the result? " (i.e., does it

> taste good?)

>

> If the result is disagreeable, I would toss it, sterilize my equipment and

> start over. Cabbage is cheap. If the result tastes good, I would eat it,

> sterilize my equipment and start over with a new batch.

>

> Again, I'm a rookie here. Others will offer more sage advice.

> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote:

>

>>

>> On 11/27/10 I prepared homemade sauerkraut for my 7.5 L Harsch crock. I

>> followed the directions in the Klaus Kaufmann/Schoenick book, " Making

>> Sauerkraut and Pickled Vegetables At Home " . I have prepared sauerkraut

>> thrice before using the techniques in the book and have previously

>> attained

>> wonderful results. However, something is wrong with this batch. It is

>> still quite crunchy and the cabbage hasn't turned from its original green

>> color to the more yellowed color of sauerkraut. Should I just throw out

>> this batch and start over again or is there something I can add to salvage

>>

>> it?

>>

>> Things that might have a bearing:

>> Before making this batch, I threw out the prior batch of sauerkraut, still

>>

>> in the Harsch crock, because it had been sitting in the crock for maybe as

>>

>> long as a year. I had contractors remodeling my house and they moved the

>> ice chest the crock was in to my basement, along with a lot of other boxes

>>

>> and things, and I couldn't find that ice chest for a long time. I washed

>> the crock and weights thoroughly with hot water before using it for this

>> batch. I don't believe I used soap. When I checked this new batch of

>> sauerkraut a month ago, it had a strong vinegar odor.

>>

>> In preparing this batch, I used 2 homegrown organic green cabbages which

>> had

>> been in my refrigerator at least a month and also 2 non-organic cabbages

>> from Safeway.

>>

>> I used celtic sea salt. I can't remember if I added any whey (from raw

>> milk

>> kefir). I may have added a small amount.

>>

>> I'm inclined to pitch this batch and start again when cabbages are

>> hopefully

>> cheaper priced for St. 's Day. What do you think?

>>

>> Lynn

>>

>

> --

> Regards,

> Harkness

>

--

Regards,

Harkness

February 18, 2011

Hi ,

I have a question - if you use either of those

- sodium metabisulfite -or- povidone iodine -

is there any chance of residue killing desired

microbes later? I have worked in food service

and have always used chlorine bleach - a couple

capfuls in a huge sink - to rinse and sanitize

dishes. I always had the idea the chlorine just

evaporates. Easy. Cheap. Easy to find. And since

my fermenting jars are all glass, I am thinking

it should work okay.

And to the other question - I also have a batch

of kraut that Isn't going right, and I am wondering

if I should throw it out and start over. This is

my second ever kraut. The first batch was great,

but in this second batch I added some apple cider

vinegar. I am thinking that was a mistake. It

smells awful. I'm not sure if it will get better,

but I am pretty sure I will never again add vinegar

to the brine.

Oh well, live and learn.

-Bompu

February 18, 2011

I've never done more " sterilizing " than just spraying

the surface with some bleach. There was a study that basically

showed spraying with vinegar and bleach DOES sterilize stuff ...

and it doesn't leave a toxic residue.

Thing about kraut is: the cabbage isn't sterile. There WILL be

extraneous bacteria in in anyway. So " mostly cleaning " a

crock should be ok. I wouldn't add misc. bacteria to it though

(like the whey) because that DOES add enough not-cabbage

bacteria that it can cause a different kind of ferment, which

may or may not be tasty.

When something smells like vinegar .... I've had that happen to

ferments that got yeasty. Usually yeast don't inhabit a cabbage

ferment, probably because there isn't all that much yeast or sugar available

and the lactobacilli create a not-yeast-friendly environment. Once

yeast get going though, they create ethanol, which isn't lactobacilli

friendly. The ethanol feeds acetobacter, which are aerobic but

there is probably enough air at the top of a crock for them to grow

(less airspace is probably better in this regard).

Here is a recipe for a sterilizing solution though. I always thought you

weren't supposed to mix bleach with anything, but I guess vinegar is safe

to mix with it:

http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benefits.com/vinegar-as-a-disinfectant.html

Research reported in 1996 on sanitizing food and food preparation surfaces,

showed that the efficiency of vinegar as a disinfectant could be increased

by 10 times when the surface or food was sprayed with normal vinegar (5%

acetic acid) and hydrogen peroxide (3%) over either one of the sprays alone.

The researchers found that this spray combination killed virtually all

Salmonella, Shigella, and E. Coli bacteria present on heavily contaminated

food and food preparation surfaces.

Then in February 2006 researchers from MicroChem Lab Inc. in Euless, Texas,

raised the bar even higher by reporting at the American Society for

Microbiology, that a solution of vinegar and regular household bleach could

be used, not just as a powerful disinfectant, but as a very effective

sterilizing agent against bacterial spoors dried onto test surfaces.

[image: bio-researcher]

According to the researchers, " Bacterial spoors dried onto surfaces are

considered the most resistant to disinfectants of all microbes, and a

disinfectant that can kill such spoors would be expected to also kill all

types of vegetative bacteria, fungi, mycrobacteria (TB), and viruses. "

They found that the vinegar bleach solution sterilized all of the surfaces

tested within 20 minutes, while a diluted bleach solution alone was only

effective in killing all of the spoors on 2.5 percent of the surfaces after

20 minutes.

To make a sterilizing solution for household use, Dr. Norman Miner (one of

the study researchers) recommends first diluting 1 oz (30 ml) of household

bleach in one gallon (3.8 L) of tap water and then adding 1 oz (30 ml) of 5%

distilled white vinegar.

So if you really want to sterilize that old wooden cutting board in your

kitchen, don't use vinegar as a disinfectant only, wipe it down with the

above vinegar/bleach solution, wait 10 to 20 minutes, and voila it's done.

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 7:29 AM, bompu1 <bompu1@...> wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> I have a question - if you use either of those

> - sodium metabisulfite -or- povidone iodine -

> is there any chance of residue killing desired

> microbes later? I have worked in food service

> and have always used chlorine bleach - a couple

> capfuls in a huge sink - to rinse and sanitize

> dishes. I always had the idea the chlorine just

> evaporates. Easy. Cheap. Easy to find. And since

> my fermenting jars are all glass, I am thinking

> it should work okay.

>

> And to the other question - I also have a batch

> of kraut that Isn't going right, and I am wondering

> if I should throw it out and start over. This is

> my second ever kraut. The first batch was great,

> but in this second batch I added some apple cider

> vinegar. I am thinking that was a mistake. It

> smells awful. I'm not sure if it will get better,

> but I am pretty sure I will never again add vinegar

> to the brine.

>

> Oh well, live and learn.

> -Bompu

>

> ------------------------------------

>

February 18, 2011

Chlorine is great for santizing glazed or glass surfaces. The worry with

chlorine in wine making is that even tiny amounts of chlorine can lead to

" cork taint. " Basically, the chlorine reacts with something in cork that

imparts a bad taste to the wine. I think the concern is overblown, because

I use chlorinated water and have never had a problem. I often use chlorine

bleach on glassware--especially when someone gives me some empty wine

bottles that have mold growing inside. It's cheap and very effective. I

never use chlorine on plastic wine-making equipment because I'm afraid it

may absorb some of the chlorine and impart a " bleach taste " to the wine.

Also you should never use chlorine on metals (including stainless steel).

Chlorine will create tiny pits in the surface of stainless steel where

bacteria can later hide.

Povidone iodine is very commonly used in the food service industry,

especially for sanitizing beverage service lines. A water solution with 25

ppm of povidone iodine will effectively sanitize a surface with just two

minutes of exposure. A bar might flush a few gallons of the solution

through their beer lines every week or two to kill off any bacteria colonies

inside the tubing. The iodine does need to be rinsed away, but it rinses

away easily. The trouble with rinsing is that the rinse water usually

contains a lot of bacteria itself. So, if you rinse with tap water, you are

adding bacteria back. When I'm bottling wine, I don't rinse. I soak my

clean bottles in a 12 ppm solution of povidone iodine for 20 minutes and

then allow them to drip dry on a bottle rack. The residual iodine is not

enough to taste, and tiny amounts of iodine are not toxic to people. (In

fact, iodine is an important nutrient--in tiny amounts.) You can use iodine

on almost any surface. It's very effective, but more expensive than bleach.

Metabisulfite is commonly available in two forms -- sodium metabisulfite and

potassimun metabisulfite, either works fine as a sanitizer. When mixed with

water, metabisulfite releases sulfur dioxide gas that quickly kills

bacteria. The gas is very unpleasant if you get a whiff of it, but it

quickly dissipates and does not harm the wine. Wine makers typically add a

small amount of potassium metabisulfite to the must (juice) 24 hours before

adding the yeast. The sulfur dioxide kills off the wild microbes and then

dissipates. Twenty-four hours later the desired yeast is added. Although

the sulfur dioxide gas dissipates, some sulfites are left in the wine. This

isn't a problem for most people, but some people are sensitive to sulfites.

That's why just about any commercial wine you can find has an " Added

Sulfites " warning label. It's possible to make wine without sulfites, but

it's risky. If you don't kill off the wild microbes, there is a very good

chance the wrong kind of microbe will take hold. Good quality must (grape

juice) is too expensive to take that risk. Many wine makers also mix up

a solution of metabisulite and use a spray bottle to spray their clean

equipment to kill off microbes.

As to the risks of using these chemicals for food fermenting? I just don't

know for sure. I think any of them (bleach, iodine or metabisulfite) would

work fine to kill microbes, but I would suggest rinsing the equipment well

with all of them.

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 9:29 AM, bompu1 <bompu1@...> wrote:

>

> Hi ,

>

> I have a question - if you use either of those

> - sodium metabisulfite -or- povidone iodine -

> is there any chance of residue killing desired

> microbes later? I have worked in food service

> and have always used chlorine bleach - a couple

> capfuls in a huge sink - to rinse and sanitize

> dishes. I always had the idea the chlorine just

> evaporates. Easy. Cheap. Easy to find. And since

> my fermenting jars are all glass, I am thinking

> it should work okay.

>

> And to the other question - I also have a batch

> of kraut that Isn't going right, and I am wondering

> if I should throw it out and start over. This is

> my second ever kraut. The first batch was great,

> but in this second batch I added some apple cider

> vinegar. I am thinking that was a mistake. It

> smells awful. I'm not sure if it will get better,

> but I am pretty sure I will never again add vinegar

> to the brine.

>

> Oh well, live and learn.

> -Bompu

>

--

Regards,

Harkness

February 19, 2011

IMO, iodine is the clear choice. The only negative is the price. But for the

typical home use very very cheap. A $5 bottle may be used dozens of times. As

near to 100% effective as anything else available. No rinsing is necessary. Any

remaining residue (if any) will not destroy the lactobacillus, and iodine is

essential (in trace amounts) for human life.

Chlorine is cheap, available and familiar, but so much bad press. iodine, like

chlorine, has to be diluted. Neither should be spilled onto you or your clothes.

If spilled, Iodine leaves a stain, chlorine removes strains.

Ed Kasper

HappyHerbalist.com

>

> Chlorine is great for santizing glazed or glass surfaces. The worry with

> chlorine in wine making is that even tiny amounts of chlorine can lead to

> " cork taint. " Basically, the chlorine reacts with something in cork that

> imparts a bad taste to the wine. I think the concern is overblown, because

> I use chlorinated water and have never had a problem. I often use chlorine

> bleach on glassware--especially when someone gives me some empty wine

> bottles that have mold growing inside. It's cheap and very effective. I

> never use chlorine on plastic wine-making equipment because I'm afraid it

> may absorb some of the chlorine and impart a " bleach taste " to the wine.

> Also you should never use chlorine on metals (including stainless steel).

> Chlorine will create tiny pits in the surface of stainless steel where

> bacteria can later hide.

>

> Povidone iodine is very commonly used in the food service industry,

> especially for sanitizing beverage service lines. A water solution with 25

> ppm of povidone iodine will effectively sanitize a surface with just two

> minutes of exposure. A bar might flush a few gallons of the solution

> through their beer lines every week or two to kill off any bacteria colonies

> inside the tubing. The iodine does need to be rinsed away, but it rinses

> away easily. The trouble with rinsing is that the rinse water usually

> contains a lot of bacteria itself. So, if you rinse with tap water, you are

> adding bacteria back. When I'm bottling wine, I don't rinse. I soak my

> clean bottles in a 12 ppm solution of povidone iodine for 20 minutes and

> then allow them to drip dry on a bottle rack. The residual iodine is not

> enough to taste, and tiny amounts of iodine are not toxic to people. (In

> fact, iodine is an important nutrient--in tiny amounts.) You can use iodine

> on almost any surface. It's very effective, but more expensive than bleach.

>

> Metabisulfite is commonly available in two forms -- sodium metabisulfite and

> potassimun metabisulfite, either works fine as a sanitizer. When mixed with

> water, metabisulfite releases sulfur dioxide gas that quickly kills

> bacteria. The gas is very unpleasant if you get a whiff of it, but it

> quickly dissipates and does not harm the wine. Wine makers typically add a

> small amount of potassium metabisulfite to the must (juice) 24 hours before

> adding the yeast. The sulfur dioxide kills off the wild microbes and then

> dissipates. Twenty-four hours later the desired yeast is added. Although

> the sulfur dioxide gas dissipates, some sulfites are left in the wine. This

> isn't a problem for most people, but some people are sensitive to sulfites.

> That's why just about any commercial wine you can find has an " Added

> Sulfites " warning label. It's possible to make wine without sulfites, but

> it's risky. If you don't kill off the wild microbes, there is a very good

> chance the wrong kind of microbe will take hold. Good quality must (grape

> juice) is too expensive to take that risk. Many wine makers also mix up

> a solution of metabisulite and use a spray bottle to spray their clean

> equipment to kill off microbes.

>

> As to the risks of using these chemicals for food fermenting? I just don't

> know for sure. I think any of them (bleach, iodine or metabisulfite) would

> work fine to kill microbes, but I would suggest rinsing the equipment well

> with all of them.

February 19, 2011

I've done wine and beer making, and I agree with your points. The thing is

though, beer and wine have to be " coddled " to get just the right results.

The more " wild " ferments, like kefir and kraut, are way more robust

and forgiving. So I usually just use hot water, with a little dish detergent

or baking soda if needed. Also I usually use canning jars, not the large

crocks, and the jars can just go through the dishwasher, where the

heat kills pretty much everything anyway.

I did have a Harsch crock and disturbingly, it developed a small internal

crack. Once pottery has cracks like that, I think it's next to impossible

to get stuff " out " of the crack. It probably doesn't matter too much ...

in my great-grandma's day the kraut was made in a wooden barrel on

the porch, and it wasn't sanitized between uses (my guess is that the LAB

just colonized the wood after awhile).

One of the things I really love about the more low-key kraut and kefir

making is the sheer simplicity of it. When making a real yeast beer, so

much cleanliness was required, mainly to kill off LAB, and with wine

one had to get rid of the mold spores (metabisulfate was great!). But

with kraut, I just chop it up, let it sit mixed with some salt, and pack

it in jars.

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Harkness <davidharkness@...>wrote: