Re: Sourdough bread and Villi yogurt

[Guest guest]

I used to do sourdough breads about twenty years ago. I carefully

maintained several cultures, but lost them when I move to Taiwan in the mid

90s. I actually dehydrated samples and shipped them to Taiwan, but they

were confiscated by Taiwan customs. I guess they suspected the powder was

drugs, but I never got an explanation.

Anyway, I ended up developing a sensitivity to gluten, and never got back to

doing sourdough. I love it, but it does bad things to me. (Not just

sourdough--any kind of wheat.)

Commercial breads have lots of additives, but if you have trouble with

breads, chances are it's the gluten. And gluten is present in any kind of

wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that, but it will make

it taste better. I'm not a crusader against gluten--I envy those who can

eat it without problems.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Kathleen <kathleencsa@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

> I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> such

> bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> healthier

> bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to causing

>

> weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture. Has

> anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone tried

> the

> Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> currently

> don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> would

> like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on the

> net.

>

> Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> flavor

> does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> store,

> like Greek-style yogurt?

>

> Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

>

> Kathleen

>

> " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> attention to

> their limitations again. " R. Cook

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do love sourdough. I mainly make my own culture from kefir grains, which

has the added advantage that it is more mold-proof.

I personally cannot eat anything with that gluten-peptide that invokes the

celiac response, so I avoid barley and rye for sure, and wheat.

As far as weight gain ... I think a lot of this has to do with insulin

response, and there are so many variables. Taking a Tbls of vinegar with a

meal makes people lose weight, and lactic acid (what sourdough makes)

probably works similarly. But the Japanese are skinny, and mainly eat plain

rice, which is really high glycemic.

My current theory is that the " insulin response " thing might be mainly

triggered by stored ferritin, which is one thing Japanese (and other skinny

people) are low in. But once your insulin response is high, you need to

lower the glycemic value of each meal, and the easiest way to do that is to

add acid ... lactic acid or acetic acid both work. So fermenting your bread

should help, I think. Adding a salad with a vinegar dressing will help too.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Kathleen <kathleencsa@...> wrote:

>

>

> I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> such

> bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> healthier

> bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to causing

> weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture.

> Has

> anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone tried

> the

> Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> currently

> don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> would

> like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on the

> net.

>

> Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> flavor

> does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> store,

> like Greek-style yogurt?

>

> Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

>

> Kathleen

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> attention to

> their limitations again. " R. Cook

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . Do you have a recipe for your own culture using Kefir grains,

or should I get a dough culture and add kefir grains? What do you use that is

gluten-free? I wish I could use a lot of, or even 2TBS, ACV daily but I can't -

too much potassium (seeps through the holes in my bladder lining and irritates

the bladder wall). Kombucha works well though but am trying to get

re-acclimated to it. The remaining little sugar seems to be feeding something

that shouldn't be in my gut.

Kathleen

" Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to

their limitations again. " R. Cook

________________________________

From:

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . I do need to stay away from gluten, as I tested positive for

gluten sensitivity. I probably get some gluten nearly every day and maybe

that's why I'm very tired - either that or I'm just terribly bored and tired

from procrastinating ;-)

That's too bad your carefully dehydrated dough got confiscated, kind of funny

too. Dehydrating it and sending it to later join me is something I would do,

haha. Customs would never believe it was really bread dough. Who in their

right mind would do such a thing, lol.

I'd best continue to stay away from bread, unless I can make a gluten-free

sourdough bread, which would be kind of fun and would further support my

procrastination habit ;-)

Kathleen

" Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to

their limitations again. " R. Cook

________________________________

From: Harkness <davidharkness@...>

nutrition

Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 7:38:25 PM

Subject: Re: Sourdough bread and Villi yogurt

I used to do sourdough breads about twenty years ago. I carefully

maintained several cultures, but lost them when I move to Taiwan in the mid

90s. I actually dehydrated samples and shipped them to Taiwan, but they

were confiscated by Taiwan customs. I guess they suspected the powder was

drugs, but I never got an explanation.

Anyway, I ended up developing a sensitivity to gluten, and never got back to

doing sourdough. I love it, but it does bad things to me. (Not just

sourdough--any kind of wheat.)

Commercial breads have lots of additives, but if you have trouble with

breads, chances are it's the gluten. And gluten is present in any kind of

wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that, but it will make

it taste better. I'm not a crusader against gluten--I envy those who can

eat it without problems.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Kathleen <kathleencsa@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

> I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> such

> bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> healthier

> bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to causing

>

> weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture. Has

> anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone tried

> the

> Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> currently

> don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> would

> like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on the

> net.

>

> Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> flavor

> does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> store,

> like Greek-style yogurt?

>

> Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

>

> Kathleen

>

> " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> attention to

> their limitations again. " R. Cook

>

>

[Guest guest]

Let it not be said that a friendly enabler won't jump right in with helpful

information. LOLOL

http://glutenfreesourdough.blogspot.com/

a

----- Original Message -----

From: Kathleen

Thanks, . I do need to stay away from gluten, as I tested positive for

I'd best continue to stay away from bread, unless I can make a gluten-free

sourdough bread, which would be kind of fun and would further support my

procrastination habit ;-)

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

It may not be the sugar....it could be the uncontrolled yeasts in the Kombucha.

Along with gluten problems often comes dybiosis and getting the gut bacteria

back in line requires a more controlled approach.

You may also be sensitive to yeast. Do you have leaky gut?

If you make your own K then then rogue yeasts that are already giving you issues

can be implanted into your K. culture and you are then just making your gut

worse.

Years ago, when my gut was healthy, all fermented vegetables and drinks were

fine....now that I have had leaky gut and dybiosis, I am very sensitive to

yeast.

Joan

Thanks, . Do you have a recipe for your own culture using Kefir

grains,

or should I get a dough culture and add kefir grains? What do you use that is

gluten-free? I wish I could use a lot of, or even 2TBS, ACV daily but I can't -

too much potassium (seeps through the holes in my bladder lining and irritates

the bladder wall). Kombucha works well though but am trying to get

re-acclimated to it. The remaining little sugar seems to be feeding something

that shouldn't be in my gut.

Kathleen

" Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to

their limitations again. " R. Cook

________________________________

[Guest guest]

For several years, I was VERY into sourdough. First it was desem (a Flemish

whole wheat sourdough that is lovely, not very tangy), and I developed a

no-knead version made with freshly-ground flour that was soooo good.

My son was obviously not doing well even with this

supposedly-much-easier-to-digest bread, so when he became gluten-free, I started

experimenting with alternative flours. I spent hours and hours, and days and

days, trying to find a way to make a decent whole-grain sourdough gluten-free

sandwich bread. I'm not sure it's possible, and still haven't found one--but

along the way, I developed several different starters, a fantastic recipe for

teff-millet flatbread (can be made crispy, or soft and flexible like a

tortilla), amazing sourdough buckwheat panckes, and various kinds of loaf breads

made with rice, millet, chia, buckwheat, etc...

I haven't made any bread for nearly a year now, since we finally realized that

our son may actually heal his gut if we don't eat any grains at all. This is

very sad for my bread-making, but you can feel free to check out my recipes on

my website: www.lifeisapalindrome.com . (And a grain-free diet is making great

things possible in our family, so I really shouldn't complain!) I also have

instructions for making your own gluten-free starter.

Good luck!! It's so much fun.

--Sarabeth

[Guest guest]

, you said that " gluten is present in any kind of

wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that... "

Surprisingly, using a sourdough culture might in fact change that - or at

least change the toxicity of the gluten. There's been a lot of work done by

a group of Italian researchers on how a long sourdough ferment can transform

gluten so it is no longer toxic to celiac patients.

http://www.twinforksfarm.com/content/2302 and

http://pubget.com/paper/14766592

Anecdotally, I know people who are allergic to gluten but don't react to

breads made from a long sourdough fermentation.

I wouldn't recommend that celiac patients try this at home - celiac is

pretty serious business. But if you have a research-oriented physician, it

might be worth looking into.

Dean

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of Harkness

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:38 PM

nutrition

Subject: Re: Sourdough bread and Villi yogurt

I used to do sourdough breads about twenty years ago. I carefully

maintained several cultures, but lost them when I move to Taiwan in the mid

90s. I actually dehydrated samples and shipped them to Taiwan, but they

were confiscated by Taiwan customs. I guess they suspected the powder was

drugs, but I never got an explanation.

Anyway, I ended up developing a sensitivity to gluten, and never got back to

doing sourdough. I love it, but it does bad things to me. (Not just

sourdough--any kind of wheat.)

Commercial breads have lots of additives, but if you have trouble with

breads, chances are it's the gluten. And gluten is present in any kind of

wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that, but it will make

it taste better. I'm not a crusader against gluten--I envy those who can

eat it without problems.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Kathleen <kathleencsa@...

<mailto:kathleencsa%40sbcglobal.net> > wrote:

>

>

>

>

> I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> such

> bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> healthier

> bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to

causing

>

> weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture. Has

> anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone tried

> the

> Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> currently

> don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> would

> like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on the

> net.

>

> Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> flavor

> does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> store,

> like Greek-style yogurt?

>

> Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

>

> Kathleen

>

> " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> attention to

> their limitations again. " R. Cook

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, sourdough does do something to the gluten. I base that only on my

observation of the dough. My impression is that the culture somehow breaks

down the " adhesive " nature of gluten, making the dough less elastic.

I have never had an intestinal biopsy for celiac, but I have a diagnosed

skin condition called dermatitus herpetiformis. My understanding is that

everyone with dermatitus herpetiforis has celiac, although I never

experienced any significant intestinal symptoms. The skin condition cleared

up with a gluten free diet, but it took some time.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Dean <dmo25@...> wrote:

>

>

> , you said that " gluten is present in any kind of

> wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that... "

>

> Surprisingly, using a sourdough culture might in fact change that - or at

> least change the toxicity of the gluten. There's been a lot of work done by

> a group of Italian researchers on how a long sourdough ferment can

> transform

> gluten so it is no longer toxic to celiac patients.

> http://www.twinforksfarm.com/content/2302 and

> http://pubget.com/paper/14766592

>

> Anecdotally, I know people who are allergic to gluten but don't react to

> breads made from a long sourdough fermentation.

>

> I wouldn't recommend that celiac patients try this at home - celiac is

> pretty serious business. But if you have a research-oriented physician, it

> might be worth looking into.

>

> Dean

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

nutrition <nutrition%40>

>

[mailto:nutrition <nutrition%40groups.co\

m>]

> On Behalf Of Harkness

> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:38 PM

>

> nutrition <nutrition%40>

> Subject: Re: Sourdough bread and Villi yogurt

>

> I used to do sourdough breads about twenty years ago. I carefully

> maintained several cultures, but lost them when I move to Taiwan in the mid

> 90s. I actually dehydrated samples and shipped them to Taiwan, but they

> were confiscated by Taiwan customs. I guess they suspected the powder was

> drugs, but I never got an explanation.

>

> Anyway, I ended up developing a sensitivity to gluten, and never got back

> to

> doing sourdough. I love it, but it does bad things to me. (Not just

> sourdough--any kind of wheat.)

>

> Commercial breads have lots of additives, but if you have trouble with

> breads, chances are it's the gluten. And gluten is present in any kind of

> wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that, but it will make

> it taste better. I'm not a crusader against gluten--I envy those who can

> eat it without problems.

>

> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Kathleen

<kathleencsa@...<kathleencsa%40sbcglobal.net>

> <mailto:kathleencsa%40sbcglobal.net <kathleencsa%2540sbcglobal.net>> >

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> > questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> > such

> > bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> > healthier

> > bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to

> causing

> >

> > weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture.

> Has

> > anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone

> tried

> > the

> > Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> > currently

> > don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> > would

> > like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on

> the

> > net.

> >

> > Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> > flavor

> > does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> > store,

> > like Greek-style yogurt?

> >

> > Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

> >

> > Kathleen

> >

> > " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> > attention to

> > their limitations again. " R. Cook

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I may not know everything about this, but the elacticity of the gluten is

affected by the pH. More acid, less elastic.

Ellis Hein

Re: Sourdough bread and Villi yogurt

>

> I used to do sourdough breads about twenty years ago. I carefully

> maintained several cultures, but lost them when I move to Taiwan in the mid

> 90s. I actually dehydrated samples and shipped them to Taiwan, but they

> were confiscated by Taiwan customs. I guess they suspected the powder was

> drugs, but I never got an explanation.

>

> Anyway, I ended up developing a sensitivity to gluten, and never got back

> to

> doing sourdough. I love it, but it does bad things to me. (Not just

> sourdough--any kind of wheat.)

>

> Commercial breads have lots of additives, but if you have trouble with

> breads, chances are it's the gluten. And gluten is present in any kind of

> wheat bread. Using a sourdough culture won't change that, but it will make

> it taste better. I'm not a crusader against gluten--I envy those who can

> eat it without problems.

>

> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Kathleen

<kathleencsa@...<kathleencsa%40sbcglobal.net>

> <mailto:kathleencsa%40sbcglobal.net <kathleencsa%2540sbcglobal.net>> >

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> > questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> > such

> > bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> > healthier

> > bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to

> causing

> >

> > weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture.

> Has

> > anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone

> tried

> > the

> > Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> > currently

> > don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> > would

> > like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on

> the

> > net.

> >

> > Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> > flavor

> > does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> > store,

> > like Greek-style yogurt?

> >

> > Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

> >

> > Kathleen

> >

> > " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> > attention to

> > their limitations again. " R. Cook

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That's basically my take on " gluten free sourdough " . If you break down the

gluten enough to make it non-toxic, then likely it's not going to do the

nice rising either. It's basically the " stickiness " of gluten that is the

issue:

it sticks to the villi of the intestine, which is irritating at the least.

Gluten

has the same protein " footprint " as candida. (candida uses a sticky protein

to stick to your intestines too).

However, they aren't sure what peptides people are really reacting to

either. In classic celiac there seems to be one main peptide sequence

that is the problem, but in tests there seem to be plenty others that people

react to ... and other grains, for that matter.

Anyway, for people like me it's a non-starter. Even if I had a culture that

for sure would detoxify wheat ... I'd still have to handle the flour in

order to

culture it, and the wheat flour would contaminate my kitchen. And if they

made it commercially, it for sure would be " made in a facility that also

handles wheat " . Once your immune system gets " primed " for wheat gluten,

it can be set off by very tiny almost homeopathic amounts of the stuff.

That and I can't imagine, any more, why I would *want* to eat " real wheat "

anyway. It's like eating, oh, " detoxified pesticides " or " harmless mercury " .

We eat REALLY GOOD food these days!

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Harkness <davidharkness@...>wrote:

> Yes, sourdough does do something to the gluten. I base that only on my

> observation of the dough. My impression is that the culture somehow breaks

> down the " adhesive " nature of gluten, making the dough less elastic.

>

> I have never had an intestinal biopsy for celiac, but I have a diagnosed

> skin condition called dermatitus herpetiformis. My understanding is that

> everyone with dermatitus herpetiforis has celiac, although I never

> experienced any significant intestinal symptoms. The skin condition

> cleared

> up with a gluten free diet, but it took some time.

> Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

It sounds like your philosophy is similar to my own. If I have to do

without wheat, then I just accept that. Lots of well meaning people have

baked " gluten-free " cakes or cookies for me when they learn I have a problem

with gluten. It's embarrassing when they expect me to eat some in front of

them, but I don't want " imitation " bread, cakes or cookies, even if I trust

the source. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's something like giving

alcohol-free beer to a recovering alcoholic. S/he is better off avoiding it

altogether. I would rather focus on real foods that are not a problem for

me. Go ahead and enjoy your rolls or cake--I am not offended, and I don't

feel " left out. "

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:21 AM,

[Guest guest]

Yes, that is one of the harder aspects of this: not offending people!

I generally won't eat something prepared in another person's kitchen,

because it just isn't worth the risk ... I lose a day or two of my life

if their sugar or cutting board was contaminated.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Harkness <davidharkness@...>wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> It sounds like your philosophy is similar to my own. If I have to do

> without wheat, then I just accept that. Lots of well meaning people have

> baked " gluten-free " cakes or cookies for me when they learn I have a

> problem

> with gluten. It's embarrassing when they expect me to eat some in front of

> them, but I don't want " imitation " bread, cakes or cookies, even if I trust

> the source. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's something like giving

> alcohol-free beer to a recovering alcoholic. S/he is better off avoiding

> it

> altogether. I would rather focus on real foods that are not a problem for

> me. Go ahead and enjoy your rolls or cake--I am not offended, and I don't

> feel " left out. "

> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:21 AM,

[Guest guest]

I hope you stayed gluten free, gluten sensitivity does not go away. I also did

not have typical symptoms, but had done a fair amount of damage to my intestines

including malnutrition because of poor absorption. There is a 'fail safe' test,

not blood, nor biopsy, if you are interested.

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm considering getting a sourdough bread starter culture but have some

> > > questions and am wondering if anyone on the list regularly makes and eats

> > > such

> > > bread. I read that this type of bread is easier to digest. Does this

> > > healthier

> > > bread still have the same problem as regular bread when it comes to

> > causing

> > >

> > > weight gain? Also, I see that there is a brown rice sourdough culture.

> > Has

> > > anyone tried that or any other gluten-free bread culture? Has anyone

> > tried

> > > the

> > > Rye sourdough bread? Anyone tried making kvass with rye sourdough? I

> > > currently

> > > don't buy bread because even looking at bread causing weight gain ;-) but

> > > would

> > > like to try a homemade one that is " easier to digest " , as I've read on

> > the

> > > net.

> > >

> > > Am also going to get a Villi culture to make villi yogurt. What kind of

> > > flavor

> > > does villi yogurt make compared to regular good quality yogurt from the

> > > store,

> > > like Greek-style yogurt?

> > >

> > > Thanks for any opinions or guidance you might have.

> > >

> > > Kathleen

> > >

> > > " Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay

> > > attention to

> > > their limitations again. " R. Cook

> > >

> > >