Re: chemical sensitivity vs allergy

[Guest guest]

Addy, I'm so sorry you're having such a miserable time and hope you

feel better soon. Do you have any nasal saline around? Irrigating

your sinuses to wash out the offending allergen/irritant might turn

things around more quickly.

Although many folks, including a lot of docs who are not up-to-date,

will say authoritatively that a reaction to a chemical " is a

sensitivity, not an allergy " , it simply ain't necessarily so. The key

is whether the reaction involves IgE or not. If IgE is involved, it

binds to the " chemical " just like any classic allergen (mold, pollen

etc.) and the IgE-chemical complex binds to mast cells to trigger a

classic " allergic " reaction.

Much of the erroneous thinking comes from an old, now outdated,

understanding that only proteins could react with IgE so that non-

protein molecules must have their effect by some other route that is

not true allergy. Now we know that many non-protein chemicals (even

steroids, as I've mentioned in another post) can cause IgE mediated

reactions that are no different from any protein-triggered allergic

reaction. In these cases, the reaction to the non-protein chemical is

a true allergy. However, many many many docs, including relatively

young ones who were trained recently, are unaware of this information

and they will firmly tell you that your " chemical " -triggered allergic-

type symptoms from an odor, for example, are due to " a sensitivity,

not an allergy " . But your intuitive sense that " walks like a duck,

quacks like a duck... " may well be correct - in these situations, you

may really be having a true allergic reaction after all.

Having said all that, there are many chemicals that provoke

sensitivies that are not IgE-mediated but instead have different

pathways to misery. In these cases, the reactions are properly said

to be due to sensitivities (technically speaking, hypersensitivities)

rather than allergy. Some of these reactions include difficulty

breathing with or without wheezing, nasal irritation/itching/

congestion and runny nose, which so many of us experience as allergic

symptoms. So the symptoms don't define the reaction as allergy vs.

sensitivity, only the presence or absence of the IgE-mediated pathway

does.

Fran

>

> OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

chemicals,

> just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

regardless -

> potato, potahto.

>

> Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for

North

> Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

school

> for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

When I

> worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour

today

> and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they

had

> stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the

campus

> kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

However,

> my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later at

home,

> I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

kitchen

> knife, I might just consider it.

>

> Addy

> Group co-owner

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Fran. I feel very vindicated reading your post. Since it

is the end of my Xolair dosing period, I expect I am having some Ige

response.

" different pathways to misery " is truly an apt phrase.

I make my own nasal rinse from a recipe I got from National Jewish.

I think and/or use it too. The first thing I did when

I came home was to rinse. About 15 minutes of nose blowing later I

took my rhinocort (ENT says I can double the dose when necessary) and

20mg pred and used my steroid inhaler to try to prevent any

inflammation from traveling to my lungs. While I am feeling no

better, the progression so far has leveled off, so I'm cautiously

optimistic that maybe I've reached the max for this time.

Anyway, your advice on rinsing is well taken. I'll rinse again

before bed in case some of the inflammation has gone down and I can

get some more stuff out.

Addy

perpetually irritated by irritants of all kinds

> >

> > OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

> chemicals,

> > just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

> regardless -

> > potato, potahto.

> >

> > Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for

> North

> > Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

> school

> > for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

> When I

> > worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour

> today

> > and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they

> had

> > stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the

> campus

> > kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

> However,

> > my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later at

> home,

> > I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

> kitchen

> > knife, I might just consider it.

> >

> > Addy

> > Group co-owner

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Addy, I also LOVE Astelin for abrupt or long-standing nasal allergy.

It puts a ton of antihistamine right where the action is and usually

works very quickly for me. I don't take it on a routine basis but

always have a sample-sized bottle in my purse for when I need it.

Feel better soon.

Fran

> > >

> > > OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

> > chemicals,

> > > just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

> > regardless -

> > > potato, potahto.

> > >

> > > Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day

for

> > North

> > > Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

> > school

> > > for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

> > When I

> > > worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a

tour

> > today

> > > and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there,

they

> > had

> > > stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from

the

> > campus

> > > kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

> > However,

> > > my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later

at

> > home,

> > > I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

> > kitchen

> > > knife, I might just consider it.

> > >

> > > Addy

> > > Group co-owner

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Addy - speaking of irritants (other than my wife), smoke

gives me fits and brings on or exacerbates my problems.

Oddly enough, my allergy tests did not reveal I am terribly

allergic to anything. However, my Ige tipped in at over 900.

This was after three sinus surgeries, the third one of which

was at Duke, where they said I'd probably never be cured.

At that time, I had mold infection, other infections and

MRSA all going at the same time in my sinuses. With a

sinus D & C and a ton of antibiotics infused over 6 weeks,

they got rid of all the infections, but the symptoms did not

disappear. A few weeks later, the MRSA cropped up in my leg.

More antibiotics to fix my leg.

Then they jam some needles through my skull to get pure

samples - No MRSA, but I've got infections again. More big

doses of antibiotics, followed by lots of prednisone. Then

infectious disease guy turns me over to pulm. dude who

stops prednisone and puts me on xolair, for which he says I'm

a perfect candidate. However, my ENT doc says it's not my

allergies as much as it is chronic sinusitis, and he thinks I

maybe should be seeing a rheumatologist. My primary care

doc puts me back on prednisone (8 mg per day) to stabilize

me and prevent xolair reactions or whatever. Sheeeeesh!!

My point in reiterating all this is that even though my Ige was

down in the 300 range before going on xolair, I was still screwed

up, but no one is sure why. Personally, I'm inclined to believe

there's a whole lot more they don't know about allergies and

asthma than they do know. I outgrew my allergies and asthma

and was free of problems probably for 20 or more years. Then

the allergies returned, which somehow brought about the sinusitis,

which became far worse than the allergies and led to a return of

asthma in the past two years. I subscribe to the ENT/chronic

sinusitis theory because prednisone is so effective in my case.

But if chronic sinusitis is the problem, why does xolair seem to

be helping - even tho pulmo doc says he won't believe I'm getting

any beneficial results until after I've been on xolair at least a year.

ly, I think the whole problematic situation is brought about

by demons and gremlins, and probably a few aliens.

Terry

----- Original Message -----

From: pyle456

Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:32 PM

Subject: [ ] chemical sensitivity vs allergy

OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to chemicals,

just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same regardless -

potato, potahto.

Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for North

Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high school

for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there. When I

worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour today

and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they had

stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the campus

kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice. However,

my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later at home,

I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a kitchen

knife, I might just consider it.

Addy

Group co-owner

[Guest guest]

Wow - I couldn't have said that better myself.

Echoing (sort of) what Fran suggests, I wouldn't be without my twice daily

flushes. The dox at Duke got me hooked on them, and said I'd probably have to

(or should) continue them the rest of my life. They gave (yeah, right!) me an

eight-ounce Neil-Med squeeze bottle ($15 at drug stores), and told me to flush

several times a day. Half a teaspoon of canning salt (no iodine - 4 lbs. for

$1) in eight ounces of warm water squeezed up my nose does wonders. If I

forget, my sinuses remind me by returning the sinus headaches. Everyone should

try this simple treatment - it flushes the cruddies out and it really helps.

Terry a.k.a. ohldepharte

----- Original Message -----

From: tiredofsteroids

Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:44 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: chemical sensitivity vs allergy

Addy, I'm so sorry you're having such a miserable time and hope you

feel better soon. Do you have any nasal saline around? Irrigating

your sinuses to wash out the offending allergen/irritant might turn

things around more quickly.

Although many folks, including a lot of docs who are not up-to-date,

will say authoritatively that a reaction to a chemical " is a

sensitivity, not an allergy " , it simply ain't necessarily so. The key

is whether the reaction involves IgE or not. If IgE is involved, it

binds to the " chemical " just like any classic allergen (mold, pollen

etc.) and the IgE-chemical complex binds to mast cells to trigger a

classic " allergic " reaction.

Much of the erroneous thinking comes from an old, now outdated,

understanding that only proteins could react with IgE so that non-

protein molecules must have their effect by some other route that is

not true allergy. Now we know that many non-protein chemicals (even

steroids, as I've mentioned in another post) can cause IgE mediated

reactions that are no different from any protein-triggered allergic

reaction. In these cases, the reaction to the non-protein chemical is

a true allergy. However, many many many docs, including relatively

young ones who were trained recently, are unaware of this information

and they will firmly tell you that your " chemical " -triggered allergic-

type symptoms from an odor, for example, are due to " a sensitivity,

not an allergy " . But your intuitive sense that " walks like a duck,

quacks like a duck... " may well be correct - in these situations, you

may really be having a true allergic reaction after all.

Having said all that, there are many chemicals that provoke

sensitivies that are not IgE-mediated but instead have different

pathways to misery. In these cases, the reactions are properly said

to be due to sensitivities (technically speaking, hypersensitivities)

rather than allergy. Some of these reactions include difficulty

breathing with or without wheezing, nasal irritation/itching/

congestion and runny nose, which so many of us experience as allergic

symptoms. So the symptoms don't define the reaction as allergy vs.

sensitivity, only the presence or absence of the IgE-mediated pathway

does.

Fran

>

> OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

chemicals,

> just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

regardless -

> potato, potahto.

>

> Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for

North

> Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

school

> for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

When I

> worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour

today

> and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they

had

> stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the

campus

> kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

However,

> my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later at

home,

> I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

kitchen

> knife, I might just consider it.

>

> Addy

> Group co-owner

>

[Guest guest]

Terry, have you had an immunological workup? You sound a lot like I

was until I was diagnosed with a form of Adult Variable Immune

Deficiency with an IgG subclass deficiency. I was then treated for

several years with intravenous immunoglubulin (=antibodies) monthly

with tremendous improvement. There are also other forms of immune

deficiency that can underlie problems like yours. If you haven't had

a workup specifically by an immunologist, it would be worth your

while to get referred to one at Duke. Allergists are board certified

in Allergy and Immunology but you would want to see someone whose

entire practice is immunology. Those folks are rarely out in the

community, almost always only at major university medical centers.

Fran

--- In , " Terry " <onabeach@...>

wrote:

>

> Addy - speaking of irritants (other than my wife), smoke

> gives me fits and brings on or exacerbates my problems.

>

> Oddly enough, my allergy tests did not reveal I am terribly

> allergic to anything. However, my Ige tipped in at over 900.

> This was after three sinus surgeries, the third one of which

> was at Duke, where they said I'd probably never be cured.

> At that time, I had mold infection, other infections and

> MRSA all going at the same time in my sinuses. With a

> sinus D & C and a ton of antibiotics infused over 6 weeks,

> they got rid of all the infections, but the symptoms did not

> disappear. A few weeks later, the MRSA cropped up in my leg.

> More antibiotics to fix my leg.

> Then they jam some needles through my skull to get pure

> samples - No MRSA, but I've got infections again. More big

> doses of antibiotics, followed by lots of prednisone. Then

> infectious disease guy turns me over to pulm. dude who

> stops prednisone and puts me on xolair, for which he says I'm

> a perfect candidate. However, my ENT doc says it's not my

> allergies as much as it is chronic sinusitis, and he thinks I

> maybe should be seeing a rheumatologist. My primary care

> doc puts me back on prednisone (8 mg per day) to stabilize

> me and prevent xolair reactions or whatever. Sheeeeesh!!

>

> My point in reiterating all this is that even though my Ige was

> down in the 300 range before going on xolair, I was still screwed

> up, but no one is sure why. Personally, I'm inclined to believe

> there's a whole lot more they don't know about allergies and

> asthma than they do know. I outgrew my allergies and asthma

> and was free of problems probably for 20 or more years. Then

> the allergies returned, which somehow brought about the sinusitis,

> which became far worse than the allergies and led to a return of

> asthma in the past two years. I subscribe to the ENT/chronic

> sinusitis theory because prednisone is so effective in my case.

> But if chronic sinusitis is the problem, why does xolair seem to

> be helping - even tho pulmo doc says he won't believe I'm getting

> any beneficial results until after I've been on xolair at least a

year.

>

> ly, I think the whole problematic situation is brought about

> by demons and gremlins, and probably a few aliens.

>

> Terry

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: pyle456

>

> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:32 PM

> Subject: [ ] chemical sensitivity vs allergy

>

>

> OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

chemicals,

> just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

regardless -

> potato, potahto.

>

> Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for

North

> Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

school

> for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

When I

> worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour

today

> and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they

had

> stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the

campus

> kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

However,

> my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later at

home,

> I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

kitchen

> knife, I might just consider it.

>

> Addy

> Group co-owner

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fran - thanx for the advice. I had some form of immunological testing - I

had contended I had low resistance because seldom does a cold or flu contact

come by that I don't get infected. They tell me the results are within

normal parameters. I have no comprehension of the nature of the test or

ability to interpret the results (which I have a copy of), but I think all

they did was extract some blood and test it. I seem to recall something

about white cells, but that's about all. Does an infectious disease control

doc count toward immunology? I've been seeing a dandy one - Harvard Med

School and all that. It's a fair piece to Duke - about 150 miles each way,

which makes for a hellofa long day.

Terry

----- Original Message -----

From: tiredofsteroids

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:23 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: chemical sensitivity vs allergy

Terry, have you had an immunological workup? You sound a lot like I

was until I was diagnosed with a form of Adult Variable Immune

Deficiency with an IgG subclass deficiency. I was then treated for

several years with intravenous immunoglubulin (=antibodies) monthly

with tremendous improvement. There are also other forms of immune

deficiency that can underlie problems like yours. If you haven't had

a workup specifically by an immunologist, it would be worth your

while to get referred to one at Duke. Allergists are board certified

in Allergy and Immunology but you would want to see someone whose

entire practice is immunology. Those folks are rarely out in the

community, almost always only at major university medical centers.

Fran

>

> Addy - speaking of irritants (other than my wife), smoke

> gives me fits and brings on or exacerbates my problems.

>

> Oddly enough, my allergy tests did not reveal I am terribly

> allergic to anything. However, my Ige tipped in at over 900.

> This was after three sinus surgeries, the third one of which

> was at Duke, where they said I'd probably never be cured.

> At that time, I had mold infection, other infections and

> MRSA all going at the same time in my sinuses. With a

> sinus D & C and a ton of antibiotics infused over 6 weeks,

> they got rid of all the infections, but the symptoms did not

> disappear. A few weeks later, the MRSA cropped up in my leg.

> More antibiotics to fix my leg.

> Then they jam some needles through my skull to get pure

> samples - No MRSA, but I've got infections again. More big

> doses of antibiotics, followed by lots of prednisone. Then

> infectious disease guy turns me over to pulm. dude who

> stops prednisone and puts me on xolair, for which he says I'm

> a perfect candidate. However, my ENT doc says it's not my

> allergies as much as it is chronic sinusitis, and he thinks I

> maybe should be seeing a rheumatologist. My primary care

> doc puts me back on prednisone (8 mg per day) to stabilize

> me and prevent xolair reactions or whatever. Sheeeeesh!!

>

> My point in reiterating all this is that even though my Ige was

> down in the 300 range before going on xolair, I was still screwed

> up, but no one is sure why. Personally, I'm inclined to believe

> there's a whole lot more they don't know about allergies and

> asthma than they do know. I outgrew my allergies and asthma

> and was free of problems probably for 20 or more years. Then

> the allergies returned, which somehow brought about the sinusitis,

> which became far worse than the allergies and led to a return of

> asthma in the past two years. I subscribe to the ENT/chronic

> sinusitis theory because prednisone is so effective in my case.

> But if chronic sinusitis is the problem, why does xolair seem to

> be helping - even tho pulmo doc says he won't believe I'm getting

> any beneficial results until after I've been on xolair at least a

year.

>

> ly, I think the whole problematic situation is brought about

> by demons and gremlins, and probably a few aliens.

>

> Terry

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: pyle456

>

> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:32 PM

> Subject: [ ] chemical sensitivity vs allergy

>

>

> OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

chemicals,

> just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

regardless -

> potato, potahto.

>

> Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for

North

> Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

school

> for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

When I

> worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour

today

> and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they

had

> stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the

campus

> kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

However,

> my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later at

home,

> I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

kitchen

> knife, I might just consider it.

>

> Addy

> Group co-owner

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It sounds like you just had a preliminary workup, probably just basic

antibody levels (immunogloblulins, abbreviated in lab reports as IgA,

IgG, IgM, IgD and possibly IgG subclasses). Immunologists (but not

infectious disease specialists) do much more extensive testing that

includes studying the function of actual immune cells that are in

your blood. Studies like this are best done by taking a patient's

blood and immediately separating out those cells and putting them

immediately into the appropriate culture conditions for the

functional testing, rather than taking blood and sending it away to a

distant lab.

I learned as a patient, and then again later as a physician, that the

best way to get a comprehensive immunological workup for someone who

has been as ill as you have for as long as you have is for the

patient to go to the immunologist. I think you would find it very

worth your while to find a day to do that at Duke if you can work it

out.

Fran

> >

> > Addy - speaking of irritants (other than my wife), smoke

> > gives me fits and brings on or exacerbates my problems.

> >

> > Oddly enough, my allergy tests did not reveal I am terribly

> > allergic to anything. However, my Ige tipped in at over 900.

> > This was after three sinus surgeries, the third one of which

> > was at Duke, where they said I'd probably never be cured.

> > At that time, I had mold infection, other infections and

> > MRSA all going at the same time in my sinuses. With a

> > sinus D & C and a ton of antibiotics infused over 6 weeks,

> > they got rid of all the infections, but the symptoms did not

> > disappear. A few weeks later, the MRSA cropped up in my leg.

> > More antibiotics to fix my leg.

> > Then they jam some needles through my skull to get pure

> > samples - No MRSA, but I've got infections again. More big

> > doses of antibiotics, followed by lots of prednisone. Then

> > infectious disease guy turns me over to pulm. dude who

> > stops prednisone and puts me on xolair, for which he says I'm

> > a perfect candidate. However, my ENT doc says it's not my

> > allergies as much as it is chronic sinusitis, and he thinks I

> > maybe should be seeing a rheumatologist. My primary care

> > doc puts me back on prednisone (8 mg per day) to stabilize

> > me and prevent xolair reactions or whatever. Sheeeeesh!!

> >

> > My point in reiterating all this is that even though my Ige was

> > down in the 300 range before going on xolair, I was still

screwed

> > up, but no one is sure why. Personally, I'm inclined to believe

> > there's a whole lot more they don't know about allergies and

> > asthma than they do know. I outgrew my allergies and asthma

> > and was free of problems probably for 20 or more years. Then

> > the allergies returned, which somehow brought about the

sinusitis,

> > which became far worse than the allergies and led to a return of

> > asthma in the past two years. I subscribe to the ENT/chronic

> > sinusitis theory because prednisone is so effective in my case.

> > But if chronic sinusitis is the problem, why does xolair seem to

> > be helping - even tho pulmo doc says he won't believe I'm

getting

> > any beneficial results until after I've been on xolair at least

a

> year.

> >

> > ly, I think the whole problematic situation is brought

about

> > by demons and gremlins, and probably a few aliens.

> >

> > Terry

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: pyle456

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:32 PM

> > Subject: [ ] chemical sensitivity vs allergy

> >

> >

> > OK - I've read and been told that one cannot be allergic to

> chemicals,

> > just " sensitive. " I don't care, my reactions are the same

> regardless -

> > potato, potahto.

> >

> > Today I went with a friend and her daughter to discovery day for

> North

> > Carolina School of Science and Math, a public residential high

> school

> > for gifted and talented students in NC. I used to work there.

> When I

> > worked there, I avoided the science wing entirely. We had a tour

> today

> > and ended up in the chem lab. While there was no one there, they

> had

> > stuff " happening, " including recycling used cooking oil from the

> campus

> > kitchen into deisel gas for the vans. An excellent practice.

> However,

> > my sinuses started burning within minutes and now, hours later

at

> home,

> > I am MISERABLE. I mean, if I could slice off my face with a

> kitchen

> > knife, I might just consider it.

> >

> > Addy

> > Group co-owner

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >