Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 Matt--I will have to admit to being a " Born again Weight Watcher " !! I am 43, 3'5 " Diastrophic that doesn't get around real well. Two years ago I was at my highest weight...sorry no confessions here, especially after seeing how people 6 inches taller than I weigh...and was told that I needed to lose at least 40 pounds. I had tried Weight Watchers many times over the past 8-10 years, with success but didn't stick with it. Two years later, and 25 pounds down and I'm sticking with it. The point system works well, but like any program, you really need to follow it and the weight will inevitably come off and stay off. The hardest part for me is drinking lots of water, but that's more from a convienence standpoint of using the bathroom being a hassle, but I probably down 3 glasses of water in addition to my 2 cups of coffee and I feel like I'm doing pretty well. I do water aerobics 3-5 times a week and that helps. It's sensible eating, portion control, exercise and water...and no deprivation. I highly recommend it. Kate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2000 Report Share Posted September 20, 2000 Hey Gang, I hate to admit it but, I too have joined Weight-Watchers with satisfactory results. I've lost 6.5 lbs. and I never go hungry. Although, I wish I could loose the weight faster, I'm loosing 1.5 lbs. per week on average. It's better to take it off slowly. I have to agree with Kate, it does work if you stay with it. The 1,2,3 program is easy to follow and I go to the support meetings, which gives me lots of encouragement. My leader is working with me to find out my weight goal. The charts that they use are for average size folk. Speaking of weight goals, anyone know what the weight range should be for a male 3'6 " . I think there's an Achondroplasia chart out there. Can someone send me one? And don't tell me I should weigh as much as a first grader <grin>. One doctor told me at a recent conference, " If you look fat, you are. " That really hit home and that was one of my deciding factors to do something about the weight issue. Plus, a friend of mine suggested I go and check out the program with her. Mind you, she's lost 25 lbs. So, I continue to loose weight and people have noticed. 6.5 lbs. is noticeable on us LP's. I really have to thank my wife Dawn, who has been supportive and loving. Dieting is one of the hardest things to do. " You " have to be the one in control of your destiny and I have taken control of my eating habits. I have tried dieting on my own with no results. I like Weight Watchers because I needed help, guidance and support. With this program, you can eat anything as long as you stay within your point system. I can have pizza and a beer if I want. Of course, I don't eat the whole pizza and I drink light beer now. Good luck! Art Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2000 Report Share Posted September 20, 2000 HI Art, Wow, I am impressed Art. Good for you. I have done WW and it was so slow, but I commend you for staying with it. I may have to go check it out. It sounds like it has improved since I last did it. I need to get with it. Thanks, and good luck. Sincerely, Patti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 A man consulted with me about exercise for fat loss who has been on WW recently. He told me that the current WW doesn't rely on the processed food products any more, and places a high emphasis on unprocessed and less processed foods. Some other aspects of their nutrition and exercise prescriptions sounded quite contemporary, as well. He was under no illusions about the WW dogma being the ultimate, but considered it a useful step towards a physique which would enable him to become more athletic and independent in the future. He reported fairly significant fat loss with them - 35 out of the 70 he wanted to lose, I think. Wilbanks ville, FL > > <<I was wondering what the members of the Supertraining list thought > of its properties i.e., nutritional content, health complications > related to this diet if any, ability for the users to stick to the > diet, cost etc. > > **** I am not familiar with what Weight Watchers recommends as far > as caloric intake or macronutrient profiles, however I have noticed > in the past that some of the prepared supermarket offerings have a > lot of salt. > > Personally I think people could save themselves a great deal of > money by simply following a sensible fitness diet, many of which are > up on the Net at no charge. > > However, Weight Watchers (and other groups such as TOPS and > Overeaters' Anonymous) do more than just provide diets. They > provide psychological support and a place to go to share problems. > Those who are trying desperately to lose body fat often need this as > much or more than they need to be told what to eat. It's different > than a personal trainer in a gym, even if the PT is a very good one. > > If this type of environment works for someone and the results are > worthwhile, I see nothing wrong with it as long as they realize that > they must make an internal permanent lifestyle change. Eventually, > they should discard the crutch and be able to go it alone. OTH, > possibly some of these people need a permanent crutch. If it means > the difference between maintaining normal body fat levels or being > obese, then the answer is an easy one. > > Rosemary Vernon, Editor > www.dolfzine.com > On-line Fitness > > Marina del Rey, CA > IronRoses@e... > http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 A man consulted with me about exercise for fat loss who has been on WW recently. He told me that the current WW doesn't rely on the processed food products any more, and places a high emphasis on unprocessed and less processed foods. Some other aspects of their nutrition and exercise prescriptions sounded quite contemporary, as well. He was under no illusions about the WW dogma being the ultimate, but considered it a useful step towards a physique which would enable him to become more athletic and independent in the future. He reported fairly significant fat loss with them - 35 out of the 70 he wanted to lose, I think. Wilbanks ville, FL > > <<I was wondering what the members of the Supertraining list thought > of its properties i.e., nutritional content, health complications > related to this diet if any, ability for the users to stick to the > diet, cost etc. > > **** I am not familiar with what Weight Watchers recommends as far > as caloric intake or macronutrient profiles, however I have noticed > in the past that some of the prepared supermarket offerings have a > lot of salt. > > Personally I think people could save themselves a great deal of > money by simply following a sensible fitness diet, many of which are > up on the Net at no charge. > > However, Weight Watchers (and other groups such as TOPS and > Overeaters' Anonymous) do more than just provide diets. They > provide psychological support and a place to go to share problems. > Those who are trying desperately to lose body fat often need this as > much or more than they need to be told what to eat. It's different > than a personal trainer in a gym, even if the PT is a very good one. > > If this type of environment works for someone and the results are > worthwhile, I see nothing wrong with it as long as they realize that > they must make an internal permanent lifestyle change. Eventually, > they should discard the crutch and be able to go it alone. OTH, > possibly some of these people need a permanent crutch. If it means > the difference between maintaining normal body fat levels or being > obese, then the answer is an easy one. > > Rosemary Vernon, Editor > www.dolfzine.com > On-line Fitness > > Marina del Rey, CA > IronRoses@e... > http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 A man consulted with me about exercise for fat loss who has been on WW recently. He told me that the current WW doesn't rely on the processed food products any more, and places a high emphasis on unprocessed and less processed foods. Some other aspects of their nutrition and exercise prescriptions sounded quite contemporary, as well. He was under no illusions about the WW dogma being the ultimate, but considered it a useful step towards a physique which would enable him to become more athletic and independent in the future. He reported fairly significant fat loss with them - 35 out of the 70 he wanted to lose, I think. Wilbanks ville, FL > > <<I was wondering what the members of the Supertraining list thought > of its properties i.e., nutritional content, health complications > related to this diet if any, ability for the users to stick to the > diet, cost etc. > > **** I am not familiar with what Weight Watchers recommends as far > as caloric intake or macronutrient profiles, however I have noticed > in the past that some of the prepared supermarket offerings have a > lot of salt. > > Personally I think people could save themselves a great deal of > money by simply following a sensible fitness diet, many of which are > up on the Net at no charge. > > However, Weight Watchers (and other groups such as TOPS and > Overeaters' Anonymous) do more than just provide diets. They > provide psychological support and a place to go to share problems. > Those who are trying desperately to lose body fat often need this as > much or more than they need to be told what to eat. It's different > than a personal trainer in a gym, even if the PT is a very good one. > > If this type of environment works for someone and the results are > worthwhile, I see nothing wrong with it as long as they realize that > they must make an internal permanent lifestyle change. Eventually, > they should discard the crutch and be able to go it alone. OTH, > possibly some of these people need a permanent crutch. If it means > the difference between maintaining normal body fat levels or being > obese, then the answer is an easy one. > > Rosemary Vernon, Editor > www.dolfzine.com > On-line Fitness > > Marina del Rey, CA > IronRoses@e... > http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 WW points system is just a way to track calories. I couldn't do since when I have too many choices I eat junk all day. If you use BFL foods and count the points I think that my work for you. Then you will get to the point that you know how many points each BFL meal is. Good Luck dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2003 Report Share Posted February 14, 2003 I know exactly what you mean. I was home from work one day and was noticing that half of the commercials are for different food establishments and the other half are weight loss commercials!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait for the ability to get a little heavy and be able to pick and choose what I want to eat instead of my E choosing for me.I have made a promise to myself that if and when I can eat somewhat normally again a few extra pounds are going to be the last thing I worry about. Kim in So. Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 Good for you. So far I have only gained a few pounds. I weigh what I did before surgery. I went from 148 to 142 and after six months I weigh 148 and feel good. Good luck. Bev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 >I was wondering if someone could explain in simple terms how the Weight Watchers point system works. This is how I understand it. Be forewarned - I've never been to a WW meeting in my life and all the info I get on the program is from various email list messages. Like with the FoodMover counts exchanges, WW counts " points. " All foods are assigned a certain number of points, but unlike the FoodMover or other exchange programs, the points aren't broken down into food groups. One " point " of butter is the same as one point of meat or one point of rice. I'm sure WW has booklets the members get outlining how many points are in each food. Their web site doesn't have any info at all. Each person is assigned a number of allowable points each day based on weight, like the FoodMover assigns a numbered calorie exchange card per day based on current weight. Many people start out loving the Points instead of the FoodMover because they don't feel any guilt after spending most of their points on fats, sweets and starchy foods and none on vegetables, but after a few weeks of eating like this, they either start to balance their food groups better, give up and go back to other better-balanced plans, like the FoodMover, or give up altogether, blaming the food plan once again for a lack of weight loss. If I'm wrong in my guess, can a WW member please correct me so I know for the future? Sue in NJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 LOL! I totally agree Lee! Tracey > My dear friend is doing weight watchers. He can have 30 points a day - > no idea how many calories that is - well, I decided to check my > points for the day - I stopped counting when I got to 60 points. > Praise GOd for the DS!! > > hugs, cindy lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 LOL! I totally agree Lee! Tracey > My dear friend is doing weight watchers. He can have 30 points a day - > no idea how many calories that is - well, I decided to check my > points for the day - I stopped counting when I got to 60 points. > Praise GOd for the DS!! > > hugs, cindy lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Just wondering if anyone here who has SMA is on weight watchers or any kind of weight loss program? I'd love to chat with you. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm & pgmarket=en-ca & RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com\ %2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Parisien wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone here who has SMA is on weight watchers or any > kind > of weight loss program? I'd love to chat with you. > > I've been unofficially doing Weight Watchers for 2 years. My weight loss has been slow but consistent. I don't really know how much I lost because of difficulties with scales and such, but my face has visibly thinned and my clothes are looser. Jenn Malatesta -------------- My web page: http://www.isoc.net/brokeninside/nekrosys/ ------------------------------------------------------------ Philo of andria: " Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 > Carolyn, do you have a long way to go? Just curious. no... 20 pounds is all i want! and it is tough!!! i can workout all day if i want to but food is my downfall :/ -carolyn. --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.672 / Virus Database: 434 - Release Date: 4/28/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 > no... 20 pounds is all i want! and it is tough!!! i can > workout all day > if i want to but food is my downfall :/ i should add that i dont really go by pounds -- i also dont use a tape measure anymore. both of those things are exercises in frustration for me. i use my clothes as a measure of my size. because i use weights and am normally on the muscular side (my old grandpa called me 'sturdy'...lol), the scale drives me crazy. i want to be able to fit in clothes that i wore pre-pregnancy. when that was possible, i weighed 20 pounds less than i do now... so that is why i said that. i currently weigh 148.5 pounds and i was 125-130 pounds before. the only problem is that was 5 years ago and now im 40 and im not sure if that goal is realistic anymore. and i wasnt lifting weights then either. so i dont really care how much weight i lose... i just want to look better and feel good about myself (and it would be really great if i could get my lower body to have less fat on it -carolyn. --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.672 / Virus Database: 434 - Release Date: 4/28/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Your goal seems realistic to me! I go by how my clothes fit too. I can fit in jr's 15's and my goal is jr's 11's. In women's I'm borderline 12/14 and would like to get to about an 8/10. Everyone's posts make exercise so exciting! Thanks People! -- In , " Cola " <pvisser@o...> wrote: > > no... 20 pounds is all i want! and it is tough!!! i can > > workout all day > > if i want to but food is my downfall :/ > > i should add that i dont really go by pounds -- i also dont use a tape > measure anymore. both of those things are exercises in frustration for me. > i use my clothes as a measure of my size. because i use weights and am > normally on the muscular side (my old grandpa called me 'sturdy'...lol), the > scale drives me crazy. i want to be able to fit in clothes that i wore > pre-pregnancy. when that was possible, i weighed 20 pounds less than i do > now... so that is why i said that. i currently weigh 148.5 pounds and i was > 125-130 pounds before. the only problem is that was 5 years ago and now im > 40 and im not sure if that goal is realistic anymore. and i wasnt lifting > weights then either. so i dont really care how much weight i lose... i just > want to look better and feel good about myself (and it would be really great > if i could get my lower body to have less fat on it > -carolyn. > > --- > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.672 / Virus Database: 434 - Release Date: 4/28/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 _jbair001@..._ (mailto:jbair001@...) writes: << I am planning on joining Weight Watchers this Thursday. Was wondering if any of you post-ops are doing this program, and how it's working out. I did WW a few years ago, and did lose weight on the " points " program, but it will be a little different now. Last time, I was on the nursing mom's program, this time I'm not...anyway, let me know what your experiences have been - thanks!>> I, personally, disliked the " new " WW very much, but I joined online. I have since switched to E-Diets and love it. Hopefully you will have better luck, and I also think it's better in person but I couldn't fit that into my lifestyle right now as I am caring for a terminally ill kitty and need to be home as much as possible. I think any program that works for the individual and reinforces discipline is a good thing. Best wishes, Patty H MGB 8/25/03 Stsvl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 I am curious as to why you " disliked the new WW very much " .... can you explain. I assume you are talking about the " core " plan as opposed to the points plan. in GA > > > _jbair001@h..._ (mailto:jbair001@h...) writes: << I am > planning on joining Weight Watchers this Thursday. Was wondering if any of you > post-ops are doing this program, and how it's working out. I did > WW a few years ago, and did lose weight on the " points " program, but it will > be a little different now. Last time, I was on the nursing mom's program, > this time I'm not...anyway, let me know what your experiences have been - > thanks!>> > > > I, personally, disliked the " new " WW very much, but I joined online. I have > since switched to E-Diets and love it. Hopefully you will have better luck, > and I also think it's better in person but I couldn't fit that into my > lifestyle right now as I am caring for a terminally ill kitty and need to be home as > much as possible. > > I think any program that works for the individual and reinforces discipline > is a good thing. > > Best wishes, > Patty H > MGB 8/25/03 Stsvl > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Just curious...what did you dislike about the new program? I've heard great things about eDiets, so if I don't end up sticking with WW, I'll check out eDiets...maybe I'll just do a different diet every week! Joanie 5/25/04 Drs. Walsh and Rutledge >From: NCGorgeous1963@... >Reply- > >Subject: Re: Weight Watchers >Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:39:58 EST > > > >_jbair001@..._ (mailto:jbair001@...) writes: << I am >planning on joining Weight Watchers this Thursday. Was wondering if any >of you >post-ops are doing this program, and how it's working out. I did >WW a few years ago, and did lose weight on the " points " program, but it >will >be a little different now. Last time, I was on the nursing mom's program, >this time I'm not...anyway, let me know what your experiences have been - >thanks!>> > > >I, personally, disliked the " new " WW very much, but I joined online. I >have >since switched to E-Diets and love it. Hopefully you will have better >luck, >and I also think it's better in person but I couldn't fit that into my >lifestyle right now as I am caring for a terminally ill kitty and need to >be home as >much as possible. > >I think any program that works for the individual and reinforces discipline >is a good thing. > >Best wishes, >Patty H >MGB 8/25/03 Stsvl > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 In a message dated 3/2/2005 1:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jwmson1@... writes: I am curious as to why you " disliked the new WW very much " .... can you explain. I assume you are talking about the " core " plan as opposed to the points plan. Hi , I have been a WW advocate for decades but they began disappointing me when they introduced the Points system because, in my opinion, it devalued sensible nutrition and I often found myself hungry (pre-MGB). But even after my MGB, if people REALLY counted every point they ate, they can blow the total very effortlessly - especially if the things that feel okay in your tummy are higher fat or calorie, like cheese. I did fabulous with them when they had the exchange program, and to some degree I still follow that. I tried the core plan and it wasn't structured enough for me. I found myself eating " just because " it was on the list. Personal issue, of course. What works for some will not work for others. WW just didn't work for me, but I do support anyone who is happy enough with their plans because I do like their support system and spirit. I wish you best of luck in your choice. Always, Patty H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Very interesting - because I felt I too did better on the old " checking off the box " system! The core plan is also way to " broad " for me... too much room for error! Like you I tend to have a little problem with the points system because some of the things that are very good for my tummy and from a protein standpoint count up really fast. I still believe in the WW process though... in GA > > > In a message dated 3/2/2005 1:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jwmson1@a... writes: > > I am curious as to why you " disliked the new WW very much " .... can you > explain. I assume you are talking about the " core " plan as opposed to the points > plan. > > > > Hi , > > I have been a WW advocate for decades but they began disappointing me when > they introduced the Points system because, in my opinion, it devalued sensible > nutrition and I often found myself hungry (pre-MGB). But even after my MGB, > if people REALLY counted every point they ate, they can blow the total very > effortlessly - especially if the things that feel okay in your tummy are higher > fat or calorie, like cheese. > > I did fabulous with them when they had the exchange program, and to some > degree I still follow that. > > I tried the core plan and it wasn't structured enough for me. I found myself > eating " just because " it was on the list. Personal issue, of course. > > What works for some will not work for others. WW just didn't work for me, > but I do support anyone who is happy enough with their plans because I do like > their support system and spirit. > > I wish you best of luck in your choice. > Always, > Patty H > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hi All: What are everyone's thoughts on Weight Watchers? I am thinking of joining. Would like to lose about 15 -20 pounds. I have previously mentioned my lack of motivation when it comes to exercise. Well, same thing applies to eating right. I don't what to do to get my butt in gear. How do those of you who have used WW like it? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 27/03/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hi , I'm currently on WW but do their at home program. I lost about 35 lbs last year and found it very easy to follow and live with. I fell off the wagon so to speak last September and have struggled to get back on. My sister's marriage fell apart and I put myself on the backburner and didn't take care of myself very well because I was so busy helping her out. It's a very doable program. It provides you with all the tools you need to lose and maintain weight loss. I love that it allows you some freedom but also gives you the guidelines for making good food choices. Hope this helps you out, RE: Weight Watchers Hi All:What are everyone's thoughts on Weight Watchers? I am thinking of joining.Would like to lose about 15 -20 pounds. I have previously mentioned my lackof motivation when it comes to exercise. Well, same thing applies to eatingright. I don't what to do to get my butt in gear. How do those of you whohave used WW like it?--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 27/03/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 hi lisa - i have lost 25 pounds following WW and exercising. it helped me to realize what proper portions are and to also realize that i needed to change some of the foods i was eating. it sounds like you would benefit from weekly face2face weigh-ins for accountability. i didnt join the face2face club though.... nor did i join up online. i did buy a points book on ebay and a friend sent me her points sliders and i joined an egroup for support, advice and tools. journaling is the first step so i suggest that you start now by writing down what you did for exercise each day, how many cups of water you drank (ww wants you to have 6 cups a day) and also you must write down all of the food and drinks that you have each day. even just doing that, and not assigning points values to the food yet, will help to make you accountable. noone wants to write down that they ate 10 oreo cookies, or whatever, right? and you can also see places where you can improve on food choices and trends in over-eating, etc. anyway, ww is also flexible... you are given a points limit and while it is strongly suggested that you use those points in healthy food, it is also possible to have treats and still stay within your points limit. also you are given a bunch of extra 'flex' points each week that you can spend and you earn a few more points by exercising. so there is some leeway in the points limit and that is a good thing. there is another WW plan besides 'flex', called 'core', which is for those who do not want to count points. you eat freely from a list of approved foods but are also given some flex points each week for those things that are not on the core menu. you have to manage your own portion sizes on this plan though so it might be better for an experienced weight watcher. also i got a brownie mix at zehrs (in the health food section) and one mixes it with plain no fat yogurt so it is a treat with a very low points value. there are even instructions on how to make a single serving in the microwave in one minute. so it is helpful to me... it is call NO PUDGE brownie mix. throw a bit of ultra low fat cool whip on it and it is pretty darned good for one point. there are other products too that people on weight watchers rave about -- SKINNY COW ice cream (i havent tried this, too expensive) and LAUGHING COW cheese (one point per pre-wrapped triangle) are a few others. :*carolyn. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 3/27/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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