Gravy

[Guest guest]

GravyMix in food processor with "s" blade:miso1 Tbsp lemon juice1 Tbsp apple cider vinegarfresh carrot juicescallion, garlic, gingerBraggs or sea salt1 tsp sesame oilThis is so good, I put it over everything!

Suzi

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[Guest guest]

Hi Marci,I have tried " besan " (split yellow chick peas flour) available at Indian stores....or moong flour (green lentils flour). They are both supposed to be healthy as well.Laddie

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Marci Riseman <mriseman@...> wrote:

 

Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy

recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.

Thanks,

Marci

[Guest guest]

I would try a starch, like cornstarch or tapioca starch, before trying rice flour in gravy. I feel the rice flour may not produce the nicest texture. From: Marci Riseman <mriseman@...>Celiac List < >Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:46:15 PMSubject:

[ ] gravy

Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy

recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.

Thanks,

Marci

[Guest guest]

Trader Joe's Turkey Gravy is gluten free. And excellent. LynnOn Nov 22, 2010, at 2:52 PM, Sara LeeKing wrote: I would try a starch, like cornstarch or tapioca starch, before trying rice flour in gravy. I feel the rice flour may not produce the nicest texture. From: Marci Riseman <mriseman@...>Celiac List < >Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:46:15 PMSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice. Thanks, Marci

[Guest guest]

Evening Marci – You are most welcome. I have used brown rice flour with a 1:9 solution for the roux. It is a darker, richer flavor, but I like it better with meat than fowl-based gravies. I have found that white rice flour works for fowl-based gravies substituting equal amount of rice flour to the wheat flour. At the first restaurant I worked at in the 80’s, we used regular rice four and would melt the fat over low heat, then add the rice flour to create a paste that is a light brown color. (With a wheat-based roux, the longer you cook, the darker the gravy) Then stirring slowly, whisking in the sauce to combine and once combined raising the heat to a medium/medium high until thickened. I think that white rice-based gravies have a slight aftertaste and also more mucus generated at the back of the throat than other starch-based gravies, though, I bet most people would never, ever notice. The constant whisking is required because the bottom of the pan will burn the gravy. If it sits too long it may also gelatinize and reprocessing will then thin the gravy too much. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

Evening Marci – I forgot to mention that boiling a roux is common practice and all starches breakdown once past the boiling point resulting in multiple problems including gelatinization and thinning. When using starches/flours as thickening agents, I recommend looking at the following variables:1. Flavor Change – raw flour/starch flavor/roasted flavor2. Appearance - Color/Sheen/Opacity Change3. Cooking Time – How long does it take to thicken4. Strength (Efficiency) –The stronger the starch, the less that is needed5. Use Time – A La Minute or Frozen/Refrigerated. If you make it and eat it, then you have more variety Regards, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

We use cornstarch at our house and love it. From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...>Subject: RE: [ ] gravy Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 10:56 PM

Evening Marci – I forgot to mention that boiling a roux is common practice and all starches breakdown once past the boiling point resulting in multiple problems including gelatinization and thinning. When using starches/flours as thickening agents, I recommend looking at the following variables:1. Flavor Change – raw flour/starch flavor/roasted flavor2. Appearance - Color/Sheen/Opacity Change3. Cooking Time – How long does it take to thicken4. Strength (Efficiency) –The stronger the starch, the less that is needed5. Use Time – A La Minute or Frozen/Refrigerated. If you make it and eat it, then you have more variety Regards, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If

using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon,

November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. !

Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that

thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best,

Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Joe! I'm going to try white rice and see how it goes. Will the roux not darken the way wheat-based rouxs do? (Is rouxs really the plural of roux?) Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:27:03 PMSubject:

RE: [ ] gravy

Evening Marci – You are most welcome. I have used brown rice flour with a 1:9 solution for the roux. It is a darker, richer flavor, but I like it better with meat than fowl-based gravies. I have found that white rice flour works for fowl-based gravies substituting equal amount of rice flour to the wheat flour. At the first restaurant I worked at in the 80’s, we used

regular rice four and would melt the fat over low heat, then add the rice flour to create a paste that is a light brown color. (With a wheat-based roux, the longer you cook, the darker the gravy) Then stirring slowly, whisking in the sauce to combine and once combined raising the heat to a medium/medium high until thickened. I think that white rice-based gravies have a slight aftertaste and also more mucus generated at the back of the throat than other starch-based gravies, though, I bet most people would never, ever notice. The constant whisking is required because the bottom of the pan will burn the gravy. If it sits too long it may also gelatinize and reprocessing will then thin the gravy too much. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking

down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the

stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy

gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the

gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is

best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

I meant skim, not slim. j Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Joe HertzbachSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: RE: [ ] gravy Good Morning Marci – The plural is roux, since roux in French means “red†and in this case it is a noun. Yes, the gravy will not be as dark because you cannot cook the rice as long as wheat, but you can still get a nice brown gravy if that is your intention. Also, the pan drippings will develop the darkness. If you slim off the thin layer of fat from the drippings, the gravy will be darker as well as a little thicker. Have a happy holiday. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks, Joe! I'm going to try white rice and see how it goes. Will the roux not darken the way wheat-based rouxs do? (Is rouxs really the plural of roux?) Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:27:03 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – You are most welcome. I have used brown rice flour with a 1:9 solution for the roux. It is a darker, richer flavor, but I like it better with meat than fowl-based gravies. I have found that white rice flour works for fowl-based gravies substituting equal amount of rice flour to the wheat flour. At the first restaurant I worked at in the 80’s, we used regular rice four and would melt the fat over low heat, then add the rice flour to create a paste that is a light brown color. (With a wheat-based roux, the longer you cook, the darker the gravy) Then stirring slowly, whisking in the sauce to combine and once combined raising the heat to a medium/medium high until thickened. I think that white rice-based gravies have a slight aftertaste and also more mucus generated at the back of the throat than other starch-based gravies, though, I bet most people would never, ever notice. The constant whisking is required because the bottom of the pan will burn the gravy. If it sits too long it may also gelatinize and reprocessing will then thin the gravy too much. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

Hi Marci – You are too kind. In general, when making a roux, you add the flour/starch (whatever kind) slowly whisking into a paste and then continuing to whisk until small bubbles begin to form. With wheat floured roux, there are four shades: dark brown, light brown, blonde, and white. With the rice-based the browns are not as deep. Simmering for 8-15 minutes will bring out the flavor of the fats as well as thicken properly by enabling the flour to soften and absorb as much liquid as possible. When you think the roux is ready, run a spoon through it and look on the backside of the spoon. If the roux is grainy, then additional cooking time is needed. If silky, then you are good to go. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Joe, my recipe says to brown the roux while risking 10-15 minutes (for wheat flour). How long do you think I should cook for the rice flour? Thank you so much, you are a godsend.Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 9:10:53 AMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyGood Morning Marci – The plural is roux, since roux in French means “red†and in this case it is a noun. Yes, the gravy will not be as dark because you cannot cook the rice as long as wheat, but you can still get a nice brown gravy if that is your intention. Also, the pan drippings will develop the darkness. If you slim off the thin layer of fat from the drippings, the gravy will be darker as well as a little thicker. Have a happy holiday. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks, Joe! I'm going to try white rice and see how it goes. Will the roux not darken the way wheat-based rouxs do? (Is rouxs really the plural of roux?) Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:27:03 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – You are most welcome. I have used brown rice flour with a 1:9 solution for the roux. It is a darker, richer flavor, but I like it better with meat than fowl-based gravies. I have found that white rice flour works for fowl-based gravies substituting equal amount of rice flour to the wheat flour. At the first restaurant I worked at in the 80’s, we used regular rice four and would melt the fat over low heat, then add the rice flour to create a paste that is a light brown color. (With a wheat-based roux, the longer you cook, the darker the gravy) Then stirring slowly, whisking in the sauce to combine and once combined raising the heat to a medium/medium high until thickened. I think that white rice-based gravies have a slight aftertaste and also more mucus generated at the back of the throat than other starch-based gravies, though, I bet most people would never, ever notice. The constant whisking is required because the bottom of the pan will burn the gravy. If it sits too long it may also gelatinize and reprocessing will then thin the gravy too much. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

It's true! Thank you for this. OK, I'm off to make roux. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:17:23 AMSubject: RE: [ ] gravy

Hi Marci – You are too kind. In general, when making a roux, you add the flour/starch (whatever kind) slowly whisking into a paste and then continuing to whisk until small bubbles begin to form. With wheat floured roux, there are four shades: dark brown, light brown, blonde, and white. With the rice-based the browns are not as deep. Simmering for 8-15 minutes will bring

out the flavor of the fats as well as thicken properly by enabling the flour to soften and absorb as much liquid as possible. When you think the roux is ready, run a spoon through it and look on the backside of the spoon. If the roux is grainy, then additional cooking time is needed. If silky, then you are good to go. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Joe, my recipe

says to brown the roux while risking 10-15 minutes (for wheat flour). How long do you think I should cook for the rice flour? Thank you so much, you are a godsend.Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Wed,

November 24, 2010 9:10:53 AMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyGood Morning Marci – The plural is roux, since roux in French means “red†and in this case it is a noun. Yes, the gravy will not be as dark because you cannot cook the rice as long as wheat, but you can still get a nice brown gravy if that is your intention. Also, the pan drippings will develop

the darkness. If you slim off the thin layer of fat from the drippings, the gravy will be darker as well as a little thicker. Have a happy holiday. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks, Joe! I'm going to try white rice and see how it goes. Will the roux not darken the way wheat-based rouxs do? (Is rouxs really the plural of roux?) Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:27:03 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – You are most welcome. I have used brown rice flour with a 1:9 solution for the roux. It is a darker, richer flavor, but I like it better with meat than fowl-based gravies. I have found that white rice flour works for fowl-based gravies substituting equal amount of rice flour to the wheat flour. At the first restaurant I worked at in the 80’s, we used regular rice four and would melt the fat over low heat, then add the rice flour to create a paste that is a light brown color. (With a wheat-based roux, the longer you cook, the darker

the gravy) Then stirring slowly, whisking in the sauce to combine and once combined raising the heat to a medium/medium high until thickened. I think that white rice-based gravies have a slight aftertaste and also more mucus generated at the back of the throat than other starch-based gravies, though, I bet most people would never, ever notice. The constant whisking is required because the bottom of the pan will burn the gravy. If it sits too long it may also gelatinize and reprocessing will then thin the gravy too much. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57

PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one

step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010

9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci

[Guest guest]

Enjoy… Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy It's true! Thank you for this. OK, I'm off to make roux. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:17:23 AMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyHi Marci – You are too kind. In general, when making a roux, you add the flour/starch (whatever kind) slowly whisking into a paste and then continuing to whisk until small bubbles begin to form. With wheat floured roux, there are four shades: dark brown, light brown, blonde, and white. With the rice-based the browns are not as deep. Simmering for 8-15 minutes will bring out the flavor of the fats as well as thicken properly by enabling the flour to soften and absorb as much liquid as possible. When you think the roux is ready, run a spoon through it and look on the backside of the spoon. If the roux is grainy, then additional cooking time is needed. If silky, then you are good to go. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Joe, my recipe says to brown the roux while risking 10-15 minutes (for wheat flour). How long do you think I should cook for the rice flour? Thank you so much, you are a godsend.Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 9:10:53 AMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyGood Morning Marci – The plural is roux, since roux in French means “red†and in this case it is a noun. Yes, the gravy will not be as dark because you cannot cook the rice as long as wheat, but you can still get a nice brown gravy if that is your intention. Also, the pan drippings will develop the darkness. If you slim off the thin layer of fat from the drippings, the gravy will be darker as well as a little thicker. Have a happy holiday. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks, Joe! I'm going to try white rice and see how it goes. Will the roux not darken the way wheat-based rouxs do? (Is rouxs really the plural of roux?) Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:27:03 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – You are most welcome. I have used brown rice flour with a 1:9 solution for the roux. It is a darker, richer flavor, but I like it better with meat than fowl-based gravies. I have found that white rice flour works for fowl-based gravies substituting equal amount of rice flour to the wheat flour. At the first restaurant I worked at in the 80’s, we used regular rice four and would melt the fat over low heat, then add the rice flour to create a paste that is a light brown color. (With a wheat-based roux, the longer you cook, the darker the gravy) Then stirring slowly, whisking in the sauce to combine and once combined raising the heat to a medium/medium high until thickened. I think that white rice-based gravies have a slight aftertaste and also more mucus generated at the back of the throat than other starch-based gravies, though, I bet most people would never, ever notice. The constant whisking is required because the bottom of the pan will burn the gravy. If it sits too long it may also gelatinize and reprocessing will then thin the gravy too much. Cheers, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] gravy Thanks everyone for your ideas. Joe, thanks for that comprehensive explanation! The gravy I've always made is roux-based, from Cooks Illustrated. It's amazing, so delicious, major crowd pleaser. It only calls for a half cup of flour, and I was hoping I could just substitute with the same amount of rice flour. Have you tried that? I've read that corn starch does what you described potato starch doing, breaking down when boiled. If using a starch (sounds like corn starch and tapioca are the most likely candidates), do you skip the long slow whisking/cooking that you do for a roux? I don't have to boil the gravy--there is one step where boiling occurs but that's for the pan drippings, which are later mixed with the roux and turkey broth. Thanks,Marci From: Joe Hertzbach <joe@...> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 9:44:24 PMSubject: RE: [ ] gravyEvening Marci – Starches are usually used rather than flours as thickeners along with the reduced pan drippings to create a slurry or roux. Each type of starch has a different property and use. The most common problem with creating gravies is not knowing the properties such as the stability factor and hold strength of the starch which usually leaves the cook creating a thinner gravy. Based on your question, I will assume that you are making a roux-based gravy which is equal parts fat and flour plus liquid. A roux with butter, pan drippings, and cornstarch (the most common starch used for sauces and gravies) will work just as well (and taste like) a flour-based gravy, plus it will not need as long of a cooking time as a flour-based gravy. Wheat Flour/Starch – Creates a heavy gravy that is opaque with a dull surface Corn Starch – Creates a light gravy that is clear and glossy but adds some flavor. ! Corn starch is twice as strong thickening strength as flour so less is needed and blends much more easily. It does reduce the strength of the seasoning so more seasoning may need to be added. Potato Starch – Potato starch is a very strong starch so very little is needed to create a gravy but you cannot overheat it because if it gets passed a boiled state it will revert the gravy to a thin sauce. Arrowroot Starch – – Creates a light gravy that is clear and is flavorless. This is probably the best starch for making gravies and sauces that thicken before getting to the boiling point and are used immediately. Arrowroot-thickened sauces and gravies do not hold up well to reheating. Tapioca Starch – It has no flavor and creates an almost clear gravy. It works quite well if you do not need to heat the gravy to a high temperature. When having to cook quickly for a lot of people, I prefer tapioca starch. Best, Joe Joe Hertzbach831.531.7422joe@...Twitter: http://twitter.com/pelesoven From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marci RisemanSent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:46 PM Celiac ListSubject: [ ] gravy Is it possible to substitute another flour for wheat flour in a regular gravy recipe? If so, which flour is best? I figured I'd try rice.Thanks,Marci