Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Thanks for the link. I remember skimming that article a few years ago, but I was not able to locate it more recently. This time I read over it a little more carefully and found some parts that I think should not be ignored. 1. At one point the article states that bifidobacteria can be completely eradicated from the colon with certain antibiotics. In such a case, there is not really much of a fair competition going on when you throw bacteria food in the ring 2. In discussion about the growth of Klesbiella on inulin the article states that most previous studies that show no growth use a specialized long chain inulin with a median chain length of 22, as opposed to the native inulin median chain length of 9, which will definitely feed the klesbiella. It seems like for this study they used native inulin, but it makes me kind of skeptical of the ultimate usefulness of other studies if I cannot get specialized long chain inulin. 3. Most importantly, the article says this: " Further, only five of the clinically significant yeast species can use inulin to any extent as a growth substrate (Bamett et a1., 1990). As consequence, the overpower of opportunistic pathogenic microorganisms may be selectively reduced and maintained with the use of probiotics and selective prebiotic agents, like inulin However, selective prebiotic agents function effectively only when there are populations of probiotic bacteria present to nourish. In certain situations, where yeasts have overgrown and they are the predominate species, such as following intense antibiotic therapy, it may also be necessary to get control of the overgrowth situation before working towards microflora modification, and further prevention. In situations where yeasts have overgrown, and control has been reestablished, introduction of a specific probiotic (to repopulate the colonic flora) and a selective prebiotic to selectively nourish the probiotic may be used to prevent reoccurrence. Thus, the primary application for inulin in opportunistic disorders is likely prevention of overgrowth rather than its therapeutical use, its therapeutic use being dependent on several variables, such as magnitude of the overgrowth condition, and specific strain(s) of organism(s) involved. " So the article you keep referencing to support the use of inulin to combat candida, itself says that when there is an overgrowth inulin is probably not the way to go. I think this statement needs to be given attention, as does my white gooey tongue, inflamed wrist, and headaches when I take inulin. greg > > > > I am still kind of torn on this inulin thing. It seems like it > would > > be such a beautiful balance of nature to provide us with something > > that would easily reestablish the careful balance in our gut, but > that > > does not seem to be my experience. > > > > I went through a whole bottle of NOW inulin within a week and my > > symptoms were, other than the normal gas and bloating: increased > > inflamation, nasal congestion, white goop on tongue throughout the > > day, longer sleep, and headaches(which are unusual for me). Does > this > > sound like die-off? > > > > I was going through the curezone forums trying to find info on > inulin > > and found alot of people for and alot of people against. There was > > also the mention of arabinogalactans as a prebiotic. Know anything > > about that? > > > > Also, your inulin reference page you link everyone to, none of the > > charts or anything show candida's response to inulin. The anaerobes > > are the ones that respond really well, are those the bifido? > > > > greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Furthermore, I have read that Inulin can be bad and foster growth of candida, if bifido bacteria break it down into free glucose and fructose, but do not consume all of it then the rest is consumed by candida. Of course this does not happen under laboratory conditions in the petri dish, because these only contain one type of bacteria or fungus, no mix. But in the bowels, there is a mix of fungus and bacteria, and they can work together to break down and digest inulin. Plus, if you ingest bifido bacteria and inulin at the same time, there is a danger that they might settle down in the long intestine instead of the colon. And the good bacteria in the wrong place (i.e. long intestine instead of colon) can also be harmful. I have taken inulin for some time, but stopped it due to heavy gas, although I had taken bifido bacteria AND nystatin for some time before. There have been (German) studies that show that more than 4 gr of inulin per day normally leads to the production of gas in the intestines. And gas, in my case, leads to constipation, because the stool no longer is one coherent mass which can be transported easily, but ³interrupted² by gas bubbles. The small fragments of stool then get blocked on their way out ... So that¹s why I stopped taking inulin. After all, I do not think that it¹s natural to eat so much inulin, as it is quite rare in vegetables or did the caveman¹s diet mainly consist of endives and artichokes ? I now rather eat all different types of vegetables, some of them with inulin, some without, and my digestion has taken a turn for the better. cheers, Am 08.12.2008 22:07 Uhr schrieb " dreaminginnoother " unter <dreaminginnoother@...> > > So the article you keep referencing to support the use of inulin to > combat candida, itself says that when there is an overgrowth inulin is > probably not the way to go. I think this statement needs to be given > attention, as does my white gooey tongue, inflamed wrist, and > headaches when I take inulin. > > greg > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Greg, a point the researchers make in these studies that showed when properly incubated in a pure culture, a few pathogens can use the FOS and sugar in native inulin to varying degrees, enzyme secretion depending, they did not research natural ecology in animals. The research that was in animals and humans dos show that bifodobacteria and lactobacilli populations can be induced to increase and control pathogens as they naturally will. OK, so that's what we're seeing, especially in the cases of people who also use colloidal silver, Homozon and other magnesium peroxides, ozonated water, coconut oil, olive leaf extract, grapefruit seed extract, antifungal drugs or other means to suppress fungal or bacterial infections at the same time as they are feeding the probiotics. But there's that issue that I think you have experienced that the spectrum of antifungal and antibacterial agents was not sufficient to weaken the infection, in which case the specific strains were not sufficiently addressed as mentioned in the research and another approach is in order. But for 95% or more the results are available with just the same approach. I don't know where you can get long-chain inulin except by the sack, about 3 1/2 years worth. Duncan > > > > > > I am still kind of torn on this inulin thing. It seems like it > > would > > > be such a beautiful balance of nature to provide us with something > > > that would easily reestablish the careful balance in our gut, but > > that > > > does not seem to be my experience. > > > > > > I went through a whole bottle of NOW inulin within a week and my > > > symptoms were, other than the normal gas and bloating: increased > > > inflamation, nasal congestion, white goop on tongue throughout the > > > day, longer sleep, and headaches(which are unusual for me). Does > > this > > > sound like die-off? > > > > > > I was going through the curezone forums trying to find info on > > inulin > > > and found alot of people for and alot of people against. There was > > > also the mention of arabinogalactans as a prebiotic. Know anything > > > about that? > > > > > > Also, your inulin reference page you link everyone to, none of the > > > charts or anything show candida's response to inulin. The anaerobes > > > are the ones that respond really well, are those the bifido? > > > > > > greg > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hi , the amount of inulin that is considered optimal in the diet is 12-15 grams total. Yes you CAN hit that figure with well-chosen regular foods if they are used as staples; the amount of inulin in several of them is listed at the bottom of my inulin references page. Note though that you'd need 6 pounds of onions, which is considered a high-inulin food, to get near the 12 grams of inulin. OR, 35 grams of garlic(!) Bifidobacteria do not break inulin down into components as such so other bacteria would get a jackpot of food; a bacterial enzyme cuts off a SINGLE molecule at a time from end of the inulin chain for immediate use, without breaking down the chain but making it ONE molecule shorter at a time. Anyway, that's what the research says, so I suspect the comment you brought into discussion is only an unsubstantiated comment. These are plentiful from the followers of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, which we have already busted on this list. On your gas comment, bifidobacteria use inulin to produce three fatty acids for fuel for the gut lining cells, but not gas; lactobacilli and some neutrals do produce gas, and gas production is reduced over time as the bifidobacteria control these populations (lactobacilli included). This is also in the research, which is referenced in Tungland's Comprehensive Scientific Review. I've had this review online for about 6 years or so now; all the references on the page should be of interest to anyone seeking information on bowel health. http://tinyurl.com/inulins As usual, everyone does their own self-health; I just hope that they do it after reading all the available literature they can find on the subject, and to that end I've posted some of the best of it on the page above; about a week of reading there alone. By the way, passage of fecal slurry is NOT blocked by gas bubbles in the gut; the mass of the slurry displaces gas regardless of whether it's under pressure or not. all good, Duncan > > Furthermore, I have read that Inulin can be bad and foster growth of > candida, if bifido bacteria break it down into free glucose and fructose, > but do not consume all of it then the rest is consumed by candida. > > Of course this does not happen under laboratory conditions in the petri > dish, because these only contain one type of bacteria or fungus, no mix. > But in the bowels, there is a mix of fungus and bacteria, and they can work > together to break down and digest inulin. > > Plus, if you ingest bifido bacteria and inulin at the same time, there is a > danger that they might settle down in the long intestine instead of the > colon. > And the good bacteria in the wrong place (i.e. long intestine instead of > colon) can also be harmful. > > I have taken inulin for some time, but stopped it due to heavy gas, although > I had taken bifido bacteria AND nystatin for some time before. > There have been (German) studies that show that more than 4 gr of inulin per > day normally leads to the production of gas in the intestines. > And gas, in my case, leads to constipation, because the stool no longer is > one coherent mass which can be transported easily, but ³interrupted² by gas > bubbles. The small fragments of stool then get blocked on their way out ... > > So that¹s why I stopped taking inulin. After all, I do not think that it¹s > natural to eat so much inulin, as it is quite rare in vegetables or did > the caveman¹s diet mainly consist of endives and artichokes ? > > I now rather eat all different types of vegetables, some of them with > inulin, some without, and my digestion has taken a turn for the better. > > cheers, > > > > > Am 08.12.2008 22:07 Uhr schrieb " dreaminginnoother " unter > <dreaminginnoother@...> > > > > So the article you keep referencing to support the use of inulin to > > combat candida, itself says that when there is an overgrowth inulin is > > probably not the way to go. I think this statement needs to be given > > attention, as does my white gooey tongue, inflamed wrist, and > > headaches when I take inulin. > > > > greg > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Yes, thanks for the laugh! Inulin is the second most common carbohydrate in the vegetable kingdom, after starch and before sugar. Nearly all plants contain it, and it is found mostly in the roots that primitive man evolved on as a staple food! I invite people to explore the historic use of inulin in its natural form. Here's a real eye-opener by way of a peer-reviewed article by Leach, " Evolutionary perspective on dietary intake of fibre and colorectal cancer " . http://www.paleobioticslab.com/evolution_fibre_colorectalcancer.htm Note the photo of coprolites (poo) from primitive middens at the bottom of Dr. Leach's page; they show primarily root fiber, and note that low fiber results in more cancer...can I rest my case now? Duncan (diligently clearing the poppycock from the data) FYI see " poppycock " in Webster's Dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/poppycock pop·py·cock Pronunciation: \ & #712;pä-p & #275;- & #716;käk\ Function: noun Etymology: Dutch dialect pappekak, literally, soft dung, from Dutch pap pap + kak dung Date: 1865 : empty talk or writing : nonsense > > So that¹s why I stopped taking inulin. After all, I do not think that it¹s > > natural to eat so much inulin, as it is quite rare in vegetables or did > > the caveman¹s diet mainly consist of endives and artichokes ? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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