Re: bipolar?

March 10, 2001

As someone who is diagnosed bipolar and has had " psychotic " episodes, the

description below for delusions with this condition seems quite accurate.

However on the occasions that I have had " visions " or unusual sensory

experiences, although I could not control them, I knew they were not " real " .

Not until I became very ill were these moments other than an interesting,

even inspiring phenomena. Only when I had been seriously manic for a month

did I finally lose my ability to rationalize a distinction between reality

and the plethora of stuff going on in my head. The night before I was

admitted to the hospital I was desperately starved for sleep, with a litany

of thoughts and useless conversations just running through my head and I had

no escape from it all. When the doctor asked if I had heard voices I said

" yes " , thinking of these racing thoughts that I seemed to have lost control

of. But I soon realized that my experiences were of an entirely different

order than someone who thinks that Jodie is sending them secret

messages through the TV. In mania the part of your brain that sees oneness

in everything (ie that recognizes " dogness " , " treeness " and so on) is

working overtime so you do begin to think that you are getting messages from

God or that you have the answer to world peace. But not all bipolar people

have hallucinations and many don't even have clear cut manic episodes. I

don't personally think bipolar is that far removed from ocd, add or anxiety

disorders. And I had to have a complete breakdown, study the subject and

become involved in volunteer work and support groups to learn to articulate

my experience.

Unfortunately diagnosis is an inexact science and the triggers and

biochemical factors are not entirely understood. As well, many of our kids

have a very hard time describing what they feel or experience or even

opening up about it at all. I would never say now that I have heard voices

because that is not an accurate description for me but it seemed right when

I was first asked and the doctors dutifully noted it. But thoughts that

evoke shame might be easier to deal with as being thought of as coming from

outside one's self. After all, at 11 my son can still carry on imaginary

conversations with his Beanie Babies. And he can easily insist his sister

is responsible for something I know he did. Because of my experience,

whenever he has talked about hearing voices I try to determine whether these

voices are really his own thoughts even if he feels that the thoughts are

beyond his control. That is distinct from hearing messages from voices on

the radio or TV. I always remind him that these thoughts are caused by his

brain but don't mean he is a bad person.

Finally, when was undergoing formal assessment we had to fill out

countless diagnostic forms with lists of behaviours and a choice between

Always, Sometimes and Never when you really needed to say " Always between

the ages of 4 and 6, Never between the ages of 6 and 8 and Sometimes since

the age of 9. So often you are asked a question and not given a reasonable

choice of answers. That complicates the whole process even more.

Just a few thoughts on the subject,

ph

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:29:49 -0000 j.monnens@... wrote:

> Most commonly, hallucinations involve hearing one or several voices

> which make a running commentary on the person's behaviors and

> thoughts. Voices are perceived as distinct from the person's own

> thoughts, and are o ften experienced as critical and threatening ....

> and ***are generally experienced without insight into their

> pathological nature.

>

> I think the part I marked with *** is what is important. People

> experiencing hallucinations are unaware that these voices aren't real.

> My OCDer talks about voices, and three years ago I secretly feared

> that he was going to be diagnosed with schizophrenia until the pdoc

> clarified this for me.

>

> People with bipolar disorder and major depression can have psychotic

> episodes. Again from Family to Family:

>

> In bipolar illness, delusions are more fluid, transitory and

> changeable; hallucinations are far less common and tend to be brief.

> In the acute stage of schizophrenia and mania, delusions are often

> gradiose, paranoid, frequently religious, withh voices perceived as

> commands from God.

>

> Depressive delusions commonly involve obsessions of guilt, sinfulness,

> poverty, feelings of persecution, and extreme hypochondria.

>

> All of this is meant to reassure all of us parents of OCDers that our

> kids are not psychotic. People with OCD are aware that their thoughts

> (and kids I think tend to describe their thoughts as " voices " ) are not

> real. It is the fear that they instill that is real. Does this make

> sense to anyone?

>

> Jule

>

March 11, 2001

ph:

The few quotes from Family to Family were not meant to suggest that

all people with bipolar disorder and/or major depression have

psychotic episodes. It was merely to point out that psychotic

episodes are very different from the way OCDers describe their

thoughts. Many people with bipolar disorder actually enjoy the manic

stage of their illness -- at least before it gets out of control.

They feel euphoric and full of energy. And I'd sure as heck prefer to

feel that way than in the severe depression at the opposite end of the

spectrum.

Jule

March 11, 2001

ph - Thank you for this really helpful and insightful message. I have

pointed out many times to my daughter's therapist that she is an

exceptionally artistic and imaginative child. No wonder her OCD takes the

form of different characters, some scary, some helpful. She (I believe and

hope) is not hallucinating - she does know not to tell people about these

ideas, after all. OTOH, one schizophrenic I knew well before he became ill

ended up trying to CONVINCE ME that the spaceship really was taking off next

Thursday with Elvis, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Lennon on board and that

I needed to get with the program in order to be saved!!! (I'm not being

mocking or funny - he did write me many letters like this a long time ago.

It was terrifying to see him change and deterioriate.) My point is that he

believed this was reality and tried to convince others that this was the

case - he did not try to guard himself against others' perceptions that this

might be crazy, the way my children do.

I want to believe the helpers, gods and bad voices my children are hearing,

demanding that they perform rituals and so on, are part of OCD - a child's

creative personifying response to his or her own out-of-control fears and

thoughts. I hope I am right - but of course I'll have to deal with whatever

the truth turns out to be.

I think the whole subject of mental illness is so much less scientific than

we would like to think. That is part of the reason it is so hard to get

effective help for our children.