Re: coming over from the other side

[Guest guest]

Bob wrot

> but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are.

Actually that is not true. Anyone at the turn of the century who lived

past 3-5 years old was likely to live as long as today's average. Nearly

all our vaunted " longer life expectancy " is a statistical artifact

because of lowered infant mortality.

sol

[Guest guest]

Bob, statin drugs being useful and cholesterol being a warning sign

are both lies. Check out the world's foremost authority and weigh his

credentials over Mercola's

http://ravnskov.nu/

Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis, wasting of the heart muscle and

other tissues such as brain tissue. There's a huge heart attack risk

in using them.

Blockages are made of mainly polyunsaturated fat and monounsaturated

fat; the data was published in Lancet in the early 70's. These are the

vegetable oils that are touted as cholesterol-lowering and have been

served up in our food chain since the mid 50's; what wasn't mentioned

was that you live longer by not using them. Here's the data:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10843345 & dopt=Abstract

Low fatty acid unsaturation: a mechanism for lowered lipoperoxidative

modification of tissue proteins in mammalian species with long life

spans.

J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 2000 Jun;55(6):B286-91

If you have blockages to worry about use BlockBuster AllClear:

http://www.goodhealth.nu/us/1400

Duncan

>

> So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

> with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

>

> My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

> will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

> could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment

with

> a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

> several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

> butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

> points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

> statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

> advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

> another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

> who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

> all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

> his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

> first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

> watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the

same

> time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

> getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

> running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

> I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people

with

> HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

> came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all

together

> but at a much slower rate.

> Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

> sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say

that

> some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

>

> I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

> and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

> questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

> problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

> of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

> not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

> at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a

few

> Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

> companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

> and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

> the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

> share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

> drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

>

> Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

> relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

> takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

> and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

>

> If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

> consider AZT?

>

> On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

> side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

> says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

>

> http://www.dr-rath-

> foundation.org.za/open_letters/open_letter_2004_11_30.htm

>

> Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

> the story came out a few days ago:

> November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

> Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

> The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

> deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

> researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

> and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

> have prevented those deaths.

>

> The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo

Mbeki

> were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

> Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

> raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS

denialists—

> and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

>

> One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was

to

> replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

> suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

> Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

>

> " I feel ashamed that we have to own up to what Harvard is saying, "

> said Hogan, who was incarcerated for a decade during apartheid. " The

> era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. "

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob

 

I wish I could offer some some good advice but I am no expert. However I do know

that there is recent commentry about 'st johns wort' and its potential in

treating AIDS. Also, olive leaf extract claims to kill the AIDS virus. I have

tried both (for different reasons) and I know both to have hidden benefits that

I had never heard about - both are available at any health food shop.

 

helen

 

ob <thismanwillmakeyousay@...> wrote:

From: Bob <thismanwillmakeyousay@...>

Subject: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Received: Sunday, 30 November, 2008, 2:31 PM

So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment with

a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the same

time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people with

HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all together

but at a much slower rate.

Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say that

some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a few

Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

consider AZT?

On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

http://www.dr- rath-

foundation.org. za/open_letters/ open_letter_ 2004_11_30. htm

Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

the story came out a few days ago:

November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

have prevented those deaths.

The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo Mbeki

were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS denialists—

and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was to

replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

" I feel ashamed that we have to own up to what Harvard is saying, "

said Hogan, who was incarcerated for a decade during apartheid. " The

era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. "

Start your day with 7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now

http://au.docs./homepageset/?p1=other & p2=au & p3=tagline

[Guest guest]

Duncan Crow wrote:

> Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis,

I thought you say using salt causes that? Or have I got the name wrong?

sol

[Guest guest]

I agree, Sol.  Lower infant mortality rates appear to have significantly altered

the results of life expectancy statistics today.  There appears to have been

many centenarians born before the turn of the century.  If they only lived to

about 30 years of age, they would have passed away in the early 1900s, but

instead lived on to over 100 years of age.  As an example, take a look at wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_centenarians

Also consider the ages of historically famous people like Socrates who died at

age 70.  He would have lived longer had he not been forced to poison himself to

death.  Plato lived to be 80 years old.  Aristotle lived to 65.  We're talking

about people who lived B.C. Far older than just the turn of the century. 

Genghis Khan lived to 65.  The list goes on and on.  I know of people today who

have died younger from other various health condititions.  Also consider all the

Greek and Roman statues and other artworks of antiquity throughout the world. 

Do we not see many, many renderings of " old " people?  Viljhalmer Stefanssen, one

of the last old-world explorers, also did a study of life expectancy of the

Inuit and found they lived pretty long, too.  He gathered his statistics from

the records of birth and death certificates made by the missionaries.  But he

too also commented that since infant mortality was high and younger people died

as a

result of hunting accidents and other rigors of wildlife, it skewed statistics.

Sorry to not have any answers regarding AZT, tho.  But just thought addressing

the age thing was a bit relevant in deciding whether heart attacks occurred less

due to shorter life-spans.  I personally would try to avoid statin drugs at all

costs, but personally have not had to make that decision, tho.  I do know that

heart troubles have plagued younger people these days.  Curious if there is an

increase in heart troubles with the younger generation overall?  I have also

read that cholesterol levels increase as the toxic burden in the body

increases.  IIRC, the idea being that cholesterol is a sort of protective

barrier or possibly a by stander in the presence of excess toxins.

Just my 2 cents,

Marla 

From: sol <solbun@...>

Subject: Re: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 1:07 PM

Bob wrot

> but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are.

Actually that is not true. Anyone at the turn of the century who lived

past 3-5 years old was likely to live as long as today's average. Nearly

all our vaunted " longer life expectancy " is a statistical artifact

because of lowered infant mortality.

sol

[Guest guest]

Well this does not support my ex hoppy of papering and taking photos of old tomb

stones and it was very rare to see these tomb stones of people living past 50?  

From: sol <solbun@...>

Subject: Re: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 1:07 PM

Bob wrot

> but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are.

Actually that is not true. Anyone at the turn of the century who lived

past 3-5 years old was likely to live as long as today's average. Nearly

all our vaunted " longer life expectancy " is a statistical artifact

because of lowered infant mortality.

sol

[Guest guest]

Your links do not go anywhere.  

 

I do know several people who's  cholestorl is like 350 that have been on the

drugs for years and are doing fine and thier liver tests to be fine.  One is 87

and doing well and at least the one who is 87 would be dead now without them.  

If what you say is true then how did the below study report these numbers that

ABC News came out with.  I used to be with ABC and know that while they can be

mislead, and one can spin numbers, the numbers have to be based on some sort of

truth and 57% less heart attack is a lot of lives saved even if a few die in the

process I am sure it is not 57% and if what you are saying is true how do they

come up with 20% less death?   By the way, did you know that almost 90% of all

drug company studies of drugs fail their testing?  Thanks Bob 

 

In the study, half of the volunteers were given 20 mg of Crestor, the newest and

most potent statin drug, though all statins lower cholesterol and inflammation.

The study was sponsored by AstraZeneca, the maker of Crestor.

adsonar_placementId=1280601;adsonar_pid=42750;adsonar_ps=-1;adsonar_zw=165;adson\

ar_zh=220;adsonar_jv='ads.adsonar.com';

The results, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, revealed that

among those taking Crestor, the rate of heart attacks fell by 54 percent, the

rate of strokes went down by 48 percent and cases of death were reduced by 20

percent, compared with those getting a placebo.

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Subject: Re: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 2:09 PM

Bob, statin drugs being useful and cholesterol being a warning sign

are both lies. Check out the world's foremost authority and weigh his

credentials over Mercola's

http://ravnskov. nu/

Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis, wasting of the heart muscle and

other tissues such as brain tissue. There's a huge heart attack risk

in using them.

Blockages are made of mainly polyunsaturated fat and monounsaturated

fat; the data was published in Lancet in the early 70's. These are the

vegetable oils that are touted as cholesterol- lowering and have been

served up in our food chain since the mid 50's; what wasn't mentioned

was that you live longer by not using them. Here's the data:

http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ entrez/query. fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids= 10843345 & dopt=Abstract

Low fatty acid unsaturation: a mechanism for lowered lipoperoxidative

modification of tissue proteins in mammalian species with long life

spans.

J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 2000 Jun;55(6):B286- 91

If you have blockages to worry about use BlockBuster AllClear:

http://www.goodheal th.nu/us/ 1400

Duncan

>

> So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

> with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

>

> My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

> will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

> could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment

with

> a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

> several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

> butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

> points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

> statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

> advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

> another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

> who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

> all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

> his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

> first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

> watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the

same

> time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

> getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

> running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

> I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people

with

> HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

> came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all

together

> but at a much slower rate.

> Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

> sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say

that

> some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

>

> I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

> and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

> questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

> problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

> of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

> not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

> at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a

few

> Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

> companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

> and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

> the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

> share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

> drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

>

> Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

> relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

> takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

> and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

>

> If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

> consider AZT?

>

> On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

> side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

> says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

>

> http://www.dr- rath-

> foundation.org. za/open_letters/ open_letter_ 2004_11_30. htm

>

> Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

> the story came out a few days ago:

> November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

> Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

> The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

> deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

> researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

> and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

> have prevented those deaths.

>

> The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo

Mbeki

> were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

> Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

> raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS

denialists—

> and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

>

> One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was

to

> replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

> suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

> Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

>

> " I feel ashamed that we have to own up to what Harvard is saying, "

> said Hogan, who was incarcerated for a decade during apartheid. " The

> era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. "

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Statin drugs can cause a lot of things including muscle pain, but as I am

sure you know heart attacks cause death, which as a disorder, death is the worse

of the two unless one is just trying to kill themseves.  

> Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis,

I thought you say using salt causes that? Or have I got the name wrong?

sol

[Guest guest]

I am just finding that there is no objectivity.  On the one side, natuaral

health people talk about the big bad drug companies and how their durgs kill

every one and then on the western MD side there is their statement that without

their drugs everyone will die.  I do know this, that just about anyone in this

group who was having a heart attack whould without thinking for a moment, ask to

be sent to the nearest western Med. hospital and would get pumped with meds they

did know even know what they were.  And quess what?  that western Med hospital

would have a good chance of saving their life.    Same with getting your legs

cut off in a car wreck, " get me to a hospital " would be the request.  In none of

those case would anyone in sound mind ask to be taken to a health food store. 

At that point all our trust would be put in a wentern med doctor.   But then

from the perpestive that someone looks like they may have a heart attack it is

all, " oh my

God, western medicine is all wrong and I do not want ot take anything they

offer. 

 

Somewhere between those perspective lies the truth.  Hey I want to a cardioogist

today who said take some cod liver oil and cut back on transfats, (not that I am

eating transfats) and maybe you can get your colertrial down and not have to

take Statin drugs.  He said however, that he tests everyones' liver who is a

patient of his and none of them have had liver damage yet but that he knows with

every fiber of his being some of them would have died without the drug.   Is he

all wrong?  

From: Bob <thismanwillmakeyous ay (DOT) com>

Subject: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Received: Sunday, 30 November, 2008, 2:31 PM

So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment with

a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the same

time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people with

HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all together

but at a much slower rate.

Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say that

some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a few

Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

consider AZT?

On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

http://www.dr- rath-

foundation.org. za/open_letters/ open_letter_ 2004_11_30. htm

Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

the story came out a few days ago:

November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

have prevented those deaths.

The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo Mbeki

were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS denialists—

and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was to

replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

" I feel ashamed that we have to own up to what Harvard is saying, "

said Hogan, who was incarcerated for a decade during apartheid. " The

era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. "

Start your day with 7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.

/ homepageset/ ?p1=other & p2=au & p3= tagline

[Guest guest]

one more factor as far as no one used to get heart attaks my dad and both my

grandfathers died of heart attacks in their earliy 40's and my dad died in 1942

and both my grandads in the 1920's and as said they all died in early 40's. 

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Subject: Re: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 2:09 PM

Bob, statin drugs being useful and cholesterol being a warning sign

are both lies. Check out the world's foremost authority and weigh his

credentials over Mercola's

http://ravnskov. nu/

Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis, wasting of the heart muscle and

other tissues such as brain tissue. There's a huge heart attack risk

in using them.

Blockages are made of mainly polyunsaturated fat and monounsaturated

fat; the data was published in Lancet in the early 70's. These are the

vegetable oils that are touted as cholesterol- lowering and have been

served up in our food chain since the mid 50's; what wasn't mentioned

was that you live longer by not using them. Here's the data:

http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ entrez/query. fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids= 10843345 & dopt=Abstract

Low fatty acid unsaturation: a mechanism for lowered lipoperoxidative

modification of tissue proteins in mammalian species with long life

spans.

J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 2000 Jun;55(6):B286- 91

If you have blockages to worry about use BlockBuster AllClear:

http://www.goodheal th.nu/us/ 1400

Duncan

>

> So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

> with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

>

> My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

> will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

> could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment

with

> a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

> several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

> butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

> points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

> statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

> advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

> another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

> who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

> all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

> his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

> first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

> watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the

same

> time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

> getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

> running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

> I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people

with

> HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

> came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all

together

> but at a much slower rate.

> Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

> sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say

that

> some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

>

> I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

> and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

> questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

> problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

> of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

> not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

> at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a

few

> Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

> companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

> and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

> the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

> share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

> drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

>

> Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

> relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

> takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

> and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

>

> If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

> consider AZT?

>

> On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

> side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

> says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

>

> http://www.dr- rath-

> foundation.org. za/open_letters/ open_letter_ 2004_11_30. htm

>

> Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

> the story came out a few days ago:

> November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

> Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

> The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

> deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

> researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

> and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

> have prevented those deaths.

>

> The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo

Mbeki

> were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

> Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

> raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS

denialists—

> and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

>

> One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was

to

> replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

> suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

> Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

[Guest guest]

one more factor as far as no one used to get heart attaks my dad and both my

grandfathers died of heart attacks in their earliy 40's and my dad died in 1942

and both my grandads in the 1920's and as said they all died in early 40's. 

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Subject: Re: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 2:09 PM

Bob, statin drugs being useful and cholesterol being a warning sign

are both lies. Check out the world's foremost authority and weigh his

credentials over Mercola's

http://ravnskov. nu/

Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis, wasting of the heart muscle and

other tissues such as brain tissue. There's a huge heart attack risk

in using them.

Blockages are made of mainly polyunsaturated fat and monounsaturated

fat; the data was published in Lancet in the early 70's. These are the

vegetable oils that are touted as cholesterol- lowering and have been

served up in our food chain since the mid 50's; what wasn't mentioned

was that you live longer by not using them. Here's the data:

http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ entrez/query. fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids= 10843345 & dopt=Abstract

Low fatty acid unsaturation: a mechanism for lowered lipoperoxidative

modification of tissue proteins in mammalian species with long life

spans.

J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 2000 Jun;55(6):B286- 91

If you have blockages to worry about use BlockBuster AllClear:

http://www.goodheal th.nu/us/ 1400

Duncan

>

> So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

> with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

>

> My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

> will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

> could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment

with

> a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

> several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

> butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

> points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

> statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

> advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

> another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

> who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

> all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

> his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

> first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

> watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the

same

> time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

> getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

> running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

> I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people

with

> HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

> came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all

together

> but at a much slower rate.

> Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

> sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say

that

> some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

>

> I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

> and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

> questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

> problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

> of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

> not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

> at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a

few

> Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

> companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

> and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

> the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

> share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

> drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

>

> Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

> relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

> takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

> and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

>

> If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

> consider AZT?

>

> On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

> side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

> says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

>

> http://www.dr- rath-

> foundation.org. za/open_letters/ open_letter_ 2004_11_30. htm

>

> Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

> the story came out a few days ago:

> November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

> Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

> The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

> deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

> researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

> and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

> have prevented those deaths.

>

> The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo

Mbeki

> were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

> Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

> raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS

denialists—

> and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

>

> One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was

to

> replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

> suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

> Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

>

> " I feel ashamed that we have to own up to what Harvard is saying, "

> said Hogan, who was incarcerated for a decade during apartheid. " The

> era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. "

>

Messages in this topic (3) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

Messages

[Guest guest]

one more factor as far as no one used to get heart attacks my dad and both my

grandfathers died of heart attacks in their earliy 40's and my dad died in 1942

and both my grandads in the 1920's and as said they all died in early 40's. 

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Subject: Re: coming over from the other side

candidiasis

Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 2:09 PM

Bob, statin drugs being useful and cholesterol being a warning sign

are both lies. Check out the world's foremost authority and weigh his

credentials over Mercola's

http://ravnskov. nu/

Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis, wasting of the heart muscle and

other tissues such as brain tissue. There's a huge heart attack risk

in using them.

Blockages are made of mainly polyunsaturated fat and monounsaturated

fat; the data was published in Lancet in the early 70's. These are the

vegetable oils that are touted as cholesterol- lowering and have been

served up in our food chain since the mid 50's; what wasn't mentioned

was that you live longer by not using them. Here's the data:

http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ entrez/query. fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids= 10843345 & dopt=Abstract

Low fatty acid unsaturation: a mechanism for lowered lipoperoxidative

modification of tissue proteins in mammalian species with long life

spans.

J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 2000 Jun;55(6):B286- 91

If you have blockages to worry about use BlockBuster AllClear:

http://www.goodheal th.nu/us/ 1400

Duncan

>

> So sorry to bother group about Bee's side of things,but I am dealing

> with some life and death issues and that is not hyperbole!

>

> My wife has HIV and is getting close to the place where her doctor

> will want her to start on the cocktail. My doctor has said that I

> could die without taking a Staton drug and I have an appointment

with

> a cardiologist on Monday. I did fight going on blood pressure meds

> several months ago and used Bee's program complete with loads of

> butter, sea salt and coconut oil to get my blood pressure to drop 20

> points both high and low and I am really looking at not doing the

> statin drugs even with my higher cholesterol. The other group just

> advises that AZT is nothing but a poison and I think that may be

> another easy black and white answer. I have know a lot of people

> who both died of AIDS in the 90s (I live in San Francisco) and not

> all of them were Gay. My best friend lost his wife to HIV along with

> his two sons. His wife had a blood transfusion while having the

> first child back before we knew anything about AIDS. My friend

> watched his kids and wife die and his brother got hiv around the

same

> time from sex. His brother got on the cocktail just when he was

> getting really sick and now 15 years later, he is really doing well,

> running, playing tennis and having a good life. In addition to that

> I was on the board of a AIDS charity that served homeless people

with

> HIV. They, some of my friends were dropping like in a war till AZT

> came out and I saw AIDS kind of stop killing people, not all

together

> but at a much slower rate.

> Bee also advises that Statin drug do nothing but kill people and

> sites Doctor Mercola; however even Doctor Mercola goes on to say

that

> some people need Staton drugs if cholesterol is over 350.

>

> I have some real questions and am trying to learn for both my wife

> and myself and I know a lot of people on AZT. I ask Bee a few

> questions and when I can see there is some real Post Hoc logic

> problems with her answers, she asked me two more questions in front

> of the whole group and then kicks me out of the group so that I can

> not answer. One of her stronger answers about Statin drugs is that

> at the turn of the century people had less heart attacks but I would

> guess that had a lot to do with the fact that people did not live

> near as long then. If you die at 30 your not apt to be killed by a

> heart attack where as if you live to 90 you are. Then I posted a

few

> Harvard studies about AIDS and Bee who always says the FDA and Drug

> companies withhold information, withheld the info from being posted

> and kicked me out of the group. Seems to me like that is worse than

> the drug companies who also have a moral obligation to support their

> share holders. I do know that a huge amount of studies funded by

> drug companies fair the drug they are trying to bring to the market.

>

> Would you ever take Statin drugs and if not why not and do you see a

> relationship between Candida and heart attack? I do know if one

> takes a Staten drug one would have to get their liver checked a lot

> and you can have muscle pain, but as a study reported by ABC stated.

>

> If you had HIV what would you all do? Would at any point you

> consider AZT?

>

> On the one hand, without any help from Bee or her group I find her

> side of the argument can best be summed up in a Harvard study that

> says vitamins be more effective at treating HIV/aids

>

> http://www.dr- rath-

> foundation.org. za/open_letters/ open_letter_ 2004_11_30. htm

>

> Then on the other side of that, there is this Harvard study of which

> the story came out a few days ago:

> November 26, 2008 Harvard Study: South African AIDS Denialism

> Resulted in 365,000 Deaths

> The South African government could have prevented 365,000 HIV/AIDS

> deaths, The New York Times reports. A study by Harvard University

> researchers estimates that providing antiretroviral drugs in general

> and drugs specifically to prevent mother-to-child transmission could

> have prevented those deaths.

>

> The study concluded that the policies of former President Thabo

Mbeki

> were to blame. After years of tension in the African National

> Congress, the party ousted Mbeki in September. The study has again

> raised questions about why Mbeki was so influenced by AIDS

denialists—

> and why his political colleagues did not challenge him earlier.

>

> One of the first acts of Kgalema Motlanthe, Mbeki's successor, was

to

> replace Manto Tshabala-Msimang. She was Mbeki's health minister, who

> suggested beetroot, lemon juice and garlic as treatment. Barbara

> Hogan, the new health minister, has quickly reversed course.

>

> " I feel ashamed that we have to own up to what Harvard is saying, "

> said Hogan, who was incarcerated for a decade during apartheid. " The

> era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. "

>

[Guest guest]

If the drugs you're talking about (AZT and Statin) had a good record

of saving lives then sure, I would take them. I wouldn't try to treat

it with just vitamins and supplements. If they weren't helping then

I'd try almost anything, but I would not try a whole lot of things

before trying the drugs.

Re people having fewer heart attacks around the turn of the century, I

think it was not because they didn't live as long, because I think the

lower life expectancy numbers were mostly due to high infant

mortality, or so I've read. But there surely were fewer ways to help

people survive some illnesses. The lower heart attack rate could have

been due to a diet higher in fiber and without preservatives,

transfats, or refined sugar and flour, as well as more outdoor

activity and of course no TV or Internet. Similarly there was less

cancer, probably for the same reasons, but there were more epidemics

due to living conditions and nonexistence of antibiotics.

To say that there were fewer heart attacks because there were no

statin drugs is faulty logic and can't be proved; it's like saying

there would be less AIDS if there was no AZT. If the main causes of

heart attacks were much less then, then that's a bigger factor.

Much has gone into AIDS research--not enough of course, but there has

been some progress, so I think it's better to go with the treatment

with the best record.

Best of luck to you and your wife.

Vicky

[Guest guest]

Yes, SOl, BOTH statin drugs AND high salt w/ low potassium cause the

same muscle and brain wasting disorder called rhabdomyolysis; this is

the source of heart attacks and muscle wasting seen in statin users.

That's not all for the statins though; I just cured a fellow's sudden

hair loss by showing him THAT side effect of statins. Everyone

remotely interested should read Dr. Uffe ravnskov's Cholesterol Myths,

and read his credentials page as well www.ravnskov.nu

Duncan

> > Statin drugs cause rhabdymyolysis,

> I thought you say using salt causes that? Or have I got the name

wrong?

> sol

>

>

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>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

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>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From my googling high levels of potassium can also cause it. In which

case the patients are given sodium bicarbonate to reduce the potassium.

High potassium can also be a result, instead of a cause, in which case

sodium bicarbonate seems to be also given. High potassium causes a lot

of problems.

sol

Duncan Crow wrote:

> Yes, SOl, BOTH statin drugs AND high salt w/ low potassium cause the

> same muscle and brain wasting disorder called rhabdomyolysis; this is

> the source of heart attacks and muscle wasting seen in statin users.

>

> That's not all for the statins though; I just cured a fellow's sudden

> hair loss by showing him THAT side effect of statins. Everyone

> remotely interested should read Dr. Uffe ravnskov's Cholesterol Myths,

> and read his credentials page as well www.ravnskov.nu

>

> Duncan

>

[Guest guest]

Any substance that can deprive the mitochondria of ATP energy building

blocks will cause cell senescence and cell death, thus the tissue

wasting such as that of rhabdomyolysis. I'm not surprised K can cause

it but most people are too low in K.

Duncan

> > Yes, SOl, BOTH statin drugs AND high salt w/ low potassium cause

the

> > same muscle and brain wasting disorder called rhabdomyolysis; this

is

> > the source of heart attacks and muscle wasting seen in statin

users.

> >

> > That's not all for the statins though; I just cured a fellow's

sudden

> > hair loss by showing him THAT side effect of statins. Everyone

> > remotely interested should read Dr. Uffe ravnskov's Cholesterol

Myths,

> > and read his credentials page as well www.ravnskov.nu

> >

> > Duncan

> >

>