Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Yet one more justification for my decision to stop supporting CSPI years ago. While I am clearly not (big) middle America, who here is ? I find that I have to literally supplement salt (I drink 2-3 grams mixed in water on hard aerobic workout days to prevent cramps (it really works). FWIW my BP measured 91/61 when I checked it a few days ago. I wouldn't mind it a little higher, maybe I need more salt :-). I can think of more and better reasons than salt to avoid processed foods (trans-fats). I don't mean to be insensitive to any hypertensives reading this. This just continues the " feel good " practice of ignoring the elephant in the room. The SAD needs to reduce their calorie intake dramatically. Salt et al, are just red herrings to confuse the issue and avoid having to deal with the real problem. end rant.... JR -----Original Message----- From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:48 AM support group Subject: [ ] Salt Finally.....some regulation about all the salt put into virtually everything. I notice that I can't even buy what looks like innocent poultry anymore without salt injections. You have to read the labels on everything folks - even if you think that there shouldn't be added salt. Salted Away By Sally Squires While weight-conscious consumers often obsess about fat and carbohydrates, a lawsuit newly filed by the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) puts another popular ingredient in the spotlight: salt. CSPI is suing the Food and Drug Administration to put more muscle into salt regulation. The lawsuit would change the status of salt from generally recognized as safe (GRAS) to an official food ingredient that would subject it to much stiffer regulation by the FDA. In issuing a report last week on the health dangers of salt, the consumer advocacy group noted that salt consumption has slowly risen over the past 30 years and, by its estimate, accounts for nearly 150,000 premature deaths annually in the United States. Most of those deaths are linked to complications of high blood pressure, or hypertension. " Americans spend more than $15 billion each year on drugs to treat hypertension, yet the government spends almost nothing to reduce salt consumption, " said CSPI executive director F. son, author of the report. The latest national nutritional surveys suggest that Americans consume about a third more than the 2,300 milligrams per day limit advised by the federal government's 2005 Dietary Guidelines for adults up to age 45. (Those older than 45, as well as African Americans and people who have already been diagnosed with elevated blood pressure, are advised to consume no more than 1,500 milligrams of sodium daily. That's the amount found in about a cup and a half of many canned soups.) And, no, removing the salt shaker from the dining table likely won't be enough. An expert committee that helped develop the revised guidelines reported in August that as much as 80 percent of sodium intake comes from processed and restaurant foods. Even so, the food industry points to major improvements and the growing number of reduced-sodium and no-salt-added products. " Over the past 40 years, there has been a dramatic reduction in the use of sodium in processed foods, " said Earl, senior director of nutrition policy at the National Food Processors Association, an industry group. " Various new techniques in canning and freezing have reduced the amount of sodium needed " to extend shelf life of foods. But those reduced-sodium products must appeal to consumers, which " is not a simple task, " as Earl notes. " There's a tradeoff here, " concedes O. Hill, director of the Clinical Nutrition Research Unit at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver, noting that salt is important for taste. " I know where CSPI is coming from. . . . But salt is used for a reason, and it plays a role in allowing consumers to like products. So I'm a big fan of getting the food industry to gradually reduce sodium over time so that the consumer doesn't notice it. " In the meantime, here's what you can do to reduce your sodium intake: Don't bother doing the milligram math. The answers are already in plain sight on nutrition food labels. Pay attention to percent daily value of sodium. " The rule of thumb is to choose foods that have less than 5 percent of the daily value for sodium " per serving, said Eva Obarzanek, a research nutritionist at the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI) . Eat more fruit and vegetables. Studies suggest that these potassium-rich foods can help counter the effects of high sodium intake. DASH. No, not the 40-yard kind, but the Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension, an eating plan that has been proven to lower blood pressure as much as some medications. DASH is low in total fat, saturated fat and cholesterol, and rich in fruit, vegetables and low-fat dairy products. Get a free copy at www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/hbp/dash/ or from the NHLBI Health Information Center, P.O. Box 30105, Bethesda, MD 20824-0105, or by calling 301-592-8573. Cut back on sodium gradually. Since the taste for salt develops over time, " it's not a good idea to go cold turkey, " said Alice Lichtenstein, professor of nutrition at Tufts University and chairwoman of the American Heart Association's Nutrition Committee. " Introduce a few lower-sodium products, substitute herbs for salt and just begin ratcheting down. That's what really works. " Choose reduced-sodium or no-salt-added foods. Harvard University's Meir Stampfer, a professor of nutrition and epidemiology, snacks on unsalted peanuts and skips sodium-loaded pretzels and chips. Lichtenstein uses low-sodium chicken broth to whip up homemade soups in minutes for her family. Or just swap " natural " peanut butter with no added salt for more-processed brands, which have 6 percent of the daily value per two tablespoons. Beware of hidden sodium. Besides restaurant fare and canned food, leading sources of sodium include many of the items that the new guidelines suggest should be consumed in greater quantities: whole-grain bread, crackers and ready-to-eat cereals, and dairy foods, especially cheese. Other high sodium sources: frozen food with sauces; macaroni and cheese with flavor or seasoning packets; salad dressings; condiments, snack foods, luncheon meats, hot dogs and processed tomato products, from juice and ketchup to salsa and sauce. Smart low-sodium choices include: oatmeal, plain shredded wheat, whole-wheat matzoh, brown rice as well as nonfat milk and yogurt. Use vinegar and oil instead of prepared salad dressings. Rinse canned beans and other vegetables to reduce sodium. Choose herbs and spices for flavoring instead of . . . well, you know.• Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 I disagree. You can always add more salt. But you can't easily take it out when added. And you are certainly not the norm. on 3/8/2005 11:37 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: > Yet one more justification for my decision to stop supporting CSPI years ago. > > While I am clearly not (big) middle America, who here is ? I find that I have > to literally supplement salt (I drink 2-3 grams mixed > in water on hard aerobic workout days to prevent cramps (it really works). > > FWIW my BP measured 91/61 when I checked it a few days ago. I wouldn't mind it > a little higher, maybe I need more salt :-). > > I can think of more and better reasons than salt to avoid processed foods > (trans-fats). I don't mean to be insensitive to any > hypertensives reading this. > > This just continues the " feel good " practice of ignoring the elephant in the > room. The SAD needs to reduce their calorie intake > dramatically. Salt et al, are just red herrings to confuse the issue and avoid > having to deal with the real problem. > > end rant.... > > JR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Do you disagree that too many calories is a bigger health threat to SAD? Perhaps if people didn't eat so much, they would get less salt too... :-) People are still searching for some simple dietary supplement or omission that will allow them to continue eating as much as they want without the bad result. They do not want to consider that simply eating less of the same might deliver a better outcome. (FWIW I do not recommend eating any amount of processed food. Just stating what appears obvious from my POV). I continue to avoid all processed food... I don't consider salt the main reason for doing so. As long as typical people buy food with their taste buds and not their brains they will continue to get too much sugar, sat fat, and yes, salt. The food business is after all a " business " so it gives the customers what they want not what they should want. We, hopefully are more aware of what we ingest. YMMV JR -----Original Message----- From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Salt I disagree. You can always add more salt. But you can't easily take it out when added. And you are certainly not the norm. on 3/8/2005 11:37 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: > Yet one more justification for my decision to stop supporting CSPI years ago. > > While I am clearly not (big) middle America, who here is ? I find that I have > to literally supplement salt (I drink 2-3 grams mixed > in water on hard aerobic workout days to prevent cramps (it really works). > > FWIW my BP measured 91/61 when I checked it a few days ago. I wouldn't mind it > a little higher, maybe I need more salt :-). > > I can think of more and better reasons than salt to avoid processed foods > (trans-fats). I don't mean to be insensitive to any > hypertensives reading this. > > This just continues the " feel good " practice of ignoring the elephant in the > room. The SAD needs to reduce their calorie intake > dramatically. Salt et al, are just red herrings to confuse the issue and avoid > having to deal with the real problem. > > end rant.... > > JR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 I keep my purchases of processed food to a minimun too. But I should be able to walk into a supermarket and buy poultry without worrying about salt added. (I am now switching to Trader Joe's who sells parts w/o skin and bones or any injections of salt). FWIW I am not so fortunate as you wrt bp numbers. My numbers are normal but not low: about 130/70 or so and sometimes even higher. My genetics struggle against me to gain the upper hand. Out of a family of 5, I'm the only one who hasn't had to take meds at my age and that's probably due to CRON. But in spite of my low weight and trimness ( BMI of about 19), my bp is considerably higher than yours. And I suspect if I didn't watch my salt, it would no doubt be higher pushing me into the danger range. So your one mouse data doesn't apply to all of us. Why not applaud any and all efforts to make people aware of what these manufacturers of food are or not doing? How can it hurt? An example I am familiar with is that some victims out there are oldsters who live alone and buy heavily salted tv dinners for convenience. They think that if they buy a complete dinner, they're getting a " balanced " fairly healthy meal. My mother in law (who was one of these) used to ask me why her feet were so swollen. I told her to lay off the salty foods, but aggressive marketing, convenience etc won out. Another segment of the population are kids who might be getting added salt in their school meals. We can't expect these segments of the population to be able to protect themselves. And when i go the market for poultry, even I can be fooled about salt. on 3/8/2005 12:48 PM, at crjohnr@... wrote: > Do you disagree that too many calories is a bigger health threat to SAD? > Perhaps if people didn't eat so much, they would get less > salt too... :-) > > People are still searching for some simple dietary supplement or omission that > will allow them to continue eating as much as they > want without the bad result. They do not want to consider that simply eating > less of the same might deliver a better outcome. (FWIW > I do not recommend eating any amount of processed food. Just stating what > appears obvious from my POV). > > I continue to avoid all processed food... I don't consider salt the main > reason for doing so. As long as typical people buy food > with their taste buds and not their brains they will continue to get too much > sugar, sat fat, and yes, salt. The food business is > after all a " business " so it gives the customers what they want not what they > should want. > > We, hopefully are more aware of what we ingest. YMMV > > JR > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Hi folks: The problem I have with salt is not its effects on BP (which are disputed in some serious studies, it seems as if some people are 'salt-sensitive', others aren't) but with its apparent connection with both stomach cancer and stroke in Japan. The japanese consume much more salt than we do so the effects are easier to distinguish in there. Salt consumption regionally in Japan varies considerably with varying traditional culinary habits, and stomach cancer rates by region were found in one study to be well correlated with salt consumption by region. fwiw Rodney. > > > Do you disagree that too many calories is a bigger health threat to SAD? > > Perhaps if people didn't eat so much, they would get less > > salt too... :-) > > > > People are still searching for some simple dietary supplement or omission that > > will allow them to continue eating as much as they > > want without the bad result. They do not want to consider that simply eating > > less of the same might deliver a better outcome. (FWIW > > I do not recommend eating any amount of processed food. Just stating what > > appears obvious from my POV). > > > > I continue to avoid all processed food... I don't consider salt the main > > reason for doing so. As long as typical people buy food > > with their taste buds and not their brains they will continue to get too much > > sugar, sat fat, and yes, salt. The food business is > > after all a " business " so it gives the customers what they want not what they > > should want. > > > > We, hopefully are more aware of what we ingest. YMMV > > > > JR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Sorry to hear about your personal BP situation. While mine had crept up to typical middle aged 130/90 or so along with my middle age spread. I found aerobic activity helpful (running & basketball). My mother in her later years was diagnosed with elevated BP and took diuretics among sundry other medications. The one time I took an active interest in her medications (after a stroke) I discovered she had multiple Drs who weren't comparing notes causing some overlap. I didn't experience very low BP, until I started dropping serious weight. These days it's uncomfortably low and I must be careful about rising to quickly, etc. If you have cited your measurement accurately your " pulse pressure " (the difference between the high and low number) looks more concerning than how high the high number which is only slightly elevated above 120 normal. I believe 40 pts is target for normal pulse pressure. Treating the symptoms passes for common modern medical practice. To that end diuretics are commonly prescribed to lower BP by lowering fluid volume. I suspect salt works along a similar vector. I don't claim any unique expertise in this area as my time is best spent on what may kill me and BP for me is if anything too low. I don't share the general hysteria about most things, and salt is one of them. Many of our ancestors evolved proximate to shorelines and likely consumed large amounts of salt. The body is pretty good about dumping the excess and conserving small amounts when it needs to. I suspect I have conditioned myself over decades of adlib eating to expect large amounts and now don't get enough. I also sweat quite a bit more than your average couch potato. As I said in my first post.. no offense to the salt sensitive hypertensives out there. You probably know who you are. We all must follow out own best path. I also agree that the food industry could use some jacking up but don't trust my buddies at CSPI to represent my interests. Comprehensive label information, and perhaps better education regarding nutrional basics could some day generate the market forces to improve the food supply. I just believe we (as a culture) are missing the obvious. We (they) eat too much and haven't yet figured it out. Sorry to be so contrary but it's my nature. JR -----Original Message----- From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Salt I keep my purchases of processed food to a minimun too. But I should be able to walk into a supermarket and buy poultry without worrying about salt added. (I am now switching to Trader Joe's who sells parts w/o skin and bones or any injections of salt). FWIW I am not so fortunate as you wrt bp numbers. My numbers are normal but not low: about 130/70 or so and sometimes even higher. My genetics struggle against me to gain the upper hand. Out of a family of 5, I'm the only one who hasn't had to take meds at my age and that's probably due to CRON. But in spite of my low weight and trimness ( BMI of about 19), my bp is considerably higher than yours. And I suspect if I didn't watch my salt, it would no doubt be higher pushing me into the danger range. So your one mouse data doesn't apply to all of us. Why not applaud any and all efforts to make people aware of what these manufacturers of food are or not doing? How can it hurt? An example I am familiar with is that some victims out there are oldsters who live alone and buy heavily salted tv dinners for convenience. They think that if they buy a complete dinner, they're getting a " balanced " fairly healthy meal. My mother in law (who was one of these) used to ask me why her feet were so swollen. I told her to lay off the salty foods, but aggressive marketing, convenience etc won out. Another segment of the population are kids who might be getting added salt in their school meals. We can't expect these segments of the population to be able to protect themselves. And when i go the market for poultry, even I can be fooled about salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Hi folks: Here is a very recent reference regarding the connection between salt and 'gastric cancer': " Salt, salted food intake, and risk of gastric cancer: epidemiologic evidence. Tsugane S. Epidemiology and Prevention Division, Research Center for Cancer Prevention and Screening, National Cancer Center, 5-1-1 Tsukiji, Chuo- ku, Tokyo 104-0045. stsugane@... Because gastric cancer is still the most common cancer, its prevention is one of the most important aspects of Japan's cancer control strategy. Observations among Japanese immigrants in the USA and Brazil based on the geographic differences, the trend in cancer incidence with time, and the change in incidence patterns indicate that gastric cancer is closely associated with dietary factors, such as the intake of salt and salted food. In international and intra- Japanese ecological studies, the average salt excretion level, estimated using randomly selected 24-h urine samples in each population, was closely correlated with gastric cancer mortality. Several case-control and cohort studies, including the author's recent works, have shown that a higher intake of some traditional salt-preserved food and salt per se, which was estimated using a validated food-frequency questionnaire, was associated with a risk of gastric cancer. While salted food intake may increase the risk of Helicobacter pylori infection, it can also act synergistically to promote the development of gastric cancer. Based on substantial evidence about the association between salt and salted food intake and the risk of gastric cancer from ecological, case-control, and cohort studies conducted in Japan and other countries, as well as mechanistic plausibility, dietary modification involving less salt and salted food intake is a practical strategy with which to prevent gastric cancer. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 15649247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] " Rodney. > > > > > Do you disagree that too many calories is a bigger health threat > to SAD? > > > Perhaps if people didn't eat so much, they would get less > > > salt too... :-) > > > > > > People are still searching for some simple dietary supplement or > omission that > > > will allow them to continue eating as much as they > > > want without the bad result. They do not want to consider that > simply eating > > > less of the same might deliver a better outcome. (FWIW > > > I do not recommend eating any amount of processed food. Just > stating what > > > appears obvious from my POV). > > > > > > I continue to avoid all processed food... I don't consider salt > the main > > > reason for doing so. As long as typical people buy food > > > with their taste buds and not their brains they will continue to > get too much > > > sugar, sat fat, and yes, salt. The food business is > > > after all a " business " so it gives the customers what they want > not what they > > > should want. > > > > > > We, hopefully are more aware of what we ingest. YMMV > > > > > > JR > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 My only argument to adding salt to all food is that it has not been proven advantageous to health. Those that need salt need to take salt. The article questions the amounts that are added. Those are far beyond the medical necessity. The argument that some are "salt-sensitive" is silly, because you are salt -sensitive. You just require more than the average guy. You can add salt to food, OTOH, but it doesn't come out easily. Anyway, the case will probably fail just as tobacco cases failed early on. IMO, there should be a limit of say, 100 mgs per 100 kcals. But the comment from the FDA that there are available non sodium added foods is silly. There is no non sodium added pork, chicken or turkey at walmart. The amount of sodium being added is increasing because it sells more product, period. Imagine if the mfgrs quit putting salt on chips. Why don't they have to prove it's safe in order to add it? People often get interested in sodium after a stroke. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:19 PM Subject: RE: [ ] Salt Sorry to hear about your personal BP situation. While mine had crept up to typical middle aged 130/90 or so along with my middle agespread. I found aerobic activity helpful (running & basketball). My mother in her later years was diagnosed with elevated BP andtook diuretics among sundry other medications. The one time I took an active interest in her medications (after a stroke) Idiscovered she had multiple Drs who weren't comparing notes causing some overlap.I didn't experience very low BP, until I started dropping serious weight. These days it's uncomfortably low and I must be carefulabout rising to quickly, etc.If you have cited your measurement accurately your "pulse pressure" (the difference between the high and low number) looks moreconcerning than how high the high number which is only slightly elevated above 120 normal. I believe 40 pts is target for normalpulse pressure.Treating the symptoms passes for common modern medical practice. To that end diuretics are commonly prescribed to lower BP bylowering fluid volume. I suspect salt works along a similar vector. I don't claim any unique expertise in this area as my time isbest spent on what may kill me and BP for me is if anything too low.I don't share the general hysteria about most things, and salt is one of them. Many of our ancestors evolved proximate to shorelinesand likely consumed large amounts of salt. The body is pretty good about dumping the excess and conserving small amounts when itneeds to. I suspect I have conditioned myself over decades of adlib eating to expect large amounts and now don't get enough. I alsosweat quite a bit more than your average couch potato.As I said in my first post.. no offense to the salt sensitive hypertensives out there. You probably know who you are. We all mustfollow out own best path.I also agree that the food industry could use some jacking up but don't trust my buddies at CSPI to represent my interests.Comprehensive label information, and perhaps better education regarding nutrional basics could some day generate the market forcesto improve the food supply. I just believe we (as a culture) are missing the obvious. We (they) eat too much and haven't yet figuredit out.Sorry to be so contrary but it's my nature.JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Hi JW: I wondered when you would chime in. Since I buy all my chicken at Wal-Mart I guess they don't add enough salt to do me much good. Do you suggest I could bump up my BP by taking even more salt? I may try that. I find when my body really needs salt it almost tastes sweet, noticeably better. After I have adequate salt, it no longer tastes so good. I never add salt to food for flavor. These days I only make an effort to add salt in recipes to avoid late night cramps. As we've already established, I may not be typical :-). JR -----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Salt My only argument to adding salt to all food is that it has not been proven advantageous to health. Those that need salt need to take salt. The article questions the amounts that are added. Those are far beyond the medical necessity. The argument that some are "salt-sensitive" is silly, because you are salt -sensitive. You just require more than the average guy. You can add salt to food, OTOH, but it doesn't come out easily. Anyway, the case will probably fail just as tobacco cases failed early on. IMO, there should be a limit of say, 100 mgs per 100 kcals. But the comment from the FDA that there are available non sodium added foods is silly. There is no non sodium added pork, chicken or turkey at walmart. The amount of sodium being added is increasing because it sells more product, period. Imagine if the mfgrs quit putting salt on chips. Why don't they have to prove it's safe in order to add it? People often get interested in sodium after a stroke. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:19 PM Subject: RE: [ ] Salt Sorry to hear about your personal BP situation. While mine had crept up to typical middle aged 130/90 or so along with my middle agespread. I found aerobic activity helpful (running & basketball). My mother in her later years was diagnosed with elevated BP andtook diuretics among sundry other medications. The one time I took an active interest in her medications (after a stroke) Idiscovered she had multiple Drs who weren't comparing notes causing some overlap.I didn't experience very low BP, until I started dropping serious weight. These days it's uncomfortably low and I must be carefulabout rising to quickly, etc.If you have cited your measurement accurately your "pulse pressure" (the difference between the high and low number) looks moreconcerning than how high the high number which is only slightly elevated above 120 normal. I believe 40 pts is target for normalpulse pressure.Treating the symptoms passes for common modern medical practice. To that end diuretics are commonly prescribed to lower BP bylowering fluid volume. I suspect salt works along a similar vector. I don't claim any unique expertise in this area as my time isbest spent on what may kill me and BP for me is if anything too low.I don't share the general hysteria about most things, and salt is one of them. Many of our ancestors evolved proximate to shorelinesand likely consumed large amounts of salt. The body is pretty good about dumping the excess and conserving small amounts when itneeds to. I suspect I have conditioned myself over decades of adlib eating to expect large amounts and now don't get enough. I alsosweat quite a bit more than your average couch potato.As I said in my first post.. no offense to the salt sensitive hypertensives out there. You probably know who you are. We all mustfollow out own best path.I also agree that the food industry could use some jacking up but don't trust my buddies at CSPI to represent my interests.Comprehensive label information, and perhaps better education regarding nutrional basics could some day generate the market forcesto improve the food supply. I just believe we (as a culture) are missing the obvious. We (they) eat too much and haven't yet figuredit out.Sorry to be so contrary but it's my nature.JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Hi JR: Didn't we discuss here a few months ago that some people can fix late night cramps with vitamin D supplements? If that would fix cramps equally as well as salt, I would have a strong preference for the vitamin, personally. (Many people are vitamin D deficient. Not many food items I eat contain it. The only reason my food intake of vitamin D modestly exceeds the RDA is because I eat fish almost every day). I also supplement it. fwiw. Rodney. --- In , " " <crjohnr@b...> wrote: > Hi JW: I wondered when you would chime in. Since I buy all my chicken at > Wal-Mart I guess they don't add enough salt to do me much good. Do you > suggest I could bump up my BP by taking even more salt? I may try that. > > I find when my body really needs salt it almost tastes sweet, noticeably > better. After I have adequate salt, it no longer tastes so good. I never add > salt to food for flavor. These days I only make an effort to add salt in > recipes to avoid late night cramps. > > As we've already established, I may not be typical :-). > > JR > -----Original Message----- > From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@e...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [ ] Salt > > > My only argument to adding salt to all food is that it has not been proven > advantageous to health. Those that need salt need to take salt. The article > questions the amounts that are added. Those are far beyond the medical > necessity. The argument that some are " salt-sensitive " is silly, because you > are salt -sensitive. You just require more than the average guy. You can add > salt to food, OTOH, but it doesn't come out easily. Anyway, the case will > probably fail just as tobacco cases failed early on. > > IMO, there should be a limit of say, 100 mgs per 100 kcals. But the > comment from the FDA that there are available non sodium added foods is > silly. There is no non sodium added pork, chicken or turkey at walmart. The > amount of sodium being added is increasing because it sells more product, > period. Imagine if the mfgrs quit putting salt on chips. > > Why don't they have to prove it's safe in order to add it? > > People often get interested in sodium after a stroke. > > Regards. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:19 PM > Subject: RE: [ ] Salt > > > Sorry to hear about your personal BP situation. While mine had crept up > to typical middle aged 130/90 or so along with my middle age > spread. I found aerobic activity helpful (running & basketball). My > mother in her later years was diagnosed with elevated BP and > took diuretics among sundry other medications. The one time I took an > active interest in her medications (after a stroke) I > discovered she had multiple Drs who weren't comparing notes causing some > overlap. > > I didn't experience very low BP, until I started dropping serious > weight. These days it's uncomfortably low and I must be careful > about rising to quickly, etc. > > If you have cited your measurement accurately your " pulse pressure " (the > difference between the high and low number) looks more > concerning than how high the high number which is only slightly elevated > above 120 normal. I believe 40 pts is target for normal > pulse pressure. > > Treating the symptoms passes for common modern medical practice. To that > end diuretics are commonly prescribed to lower BP by > lowering fluid volume. I suspect salt works along a similar vector. I > don't claim any unique expertise in this area as my time is > best spent on what may kill me and BP for me is if anything too low. > > I don't share the general hysteria about most things, and salt is one of > them. Many of our ancestors evolved proximate to shorelines > and likely consumed large amounts of salt. The body is pretty good about > dumping the excess and conserving small amounts when it > needs to. I suspect I have conditioned myself over decades of adlib > eating to expect large amounts and now don't get enough. I also > sweat quite a bit more than your average couch potato. > > As I said in my first post.. no offense to the salt sensitive > hypertensives out there. You probably know who you are. We all must > follow out own best path. > > I also agree that the food industry could use some jacking up but don't > trust my buddies at CSPI to represent my interests. > Comprehensive label information, and perhaps better education regarding > nutrional basics could some day generate the market forces > to improve the food supply. I just believe we (as a culture) are missing > the obvious. We (they) eat too much and haven't yet figured > it out. > > Sorry to be so contrary but it's my nature. > > JR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 When my sodium intake is too low I get effects also, like below 800 mgs. And no one will ever prove sodium causes HTN, any more than they will prove the SAD is bad. People doing manual labor outside need more sodium, but sodium is in everything. It's a question of how much to add and how to limit it. But everyone is salt-sensitive, because if you take away all sodium, we will die. That poorly chosen phrase describes people that can lower BP by reducing sodium and it has nothing to do with how much sodium goes into food. Sodium must be added for some foods as a preservative, to modify acids in food, and for rising. The case will fail but if enough people die of stroke and sue the mfgrs, the mfgrs will eventually lose like the tobacco companies lost and the loss will change their thinking. Only economic measures can change policy - science takes a walk. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:11 PM Subject: RE: [ ] Salt Hi JW: I wondered when you would chime in. Since I buy all my chicken at Wal-Mart I guess they don't add enough salt to do me much good. Do you suggest I could bump up my BP by taking even more salt? I may try that. I find when my body really needs salt it almost tastes sweet, noticeably better. After I have adequate salt, it no longer tastes so good. I never add salt to food for flavor. These days I only make an effort to add salt in recipes to avoid late night cramps. As we've already established, I may not be typical :-). JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 If beer would fix cramps as well as salt I would prefer it, alas it doesn't (for me) :-). There are also people who suggest sleeping with a bar of soap. I perceive an immediate relaxation in the cramping that correlates with ingesting salt (actually salt water). It is difficult to drop a remedy that works so fast and effectively. Re: Vit D, sorry I don't recall any such discussion. I may pick some up and try it. I am a Vit D advocate but don't currently supplement. Since one of the events that sometimes triggers my salt deficit is running outdoors (in sun light), I don't immediately suspect a Vit D deficiency, but I also get moderate amounts of sodium in my diet already too. My understanding is that Vit D is important in several hormone mechanisms, what might it have to do with cramping? JR PS: I eat a small serving of salmon every day for lunch and a few small servings of dairy (Kefir). -----Original Message----- From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:22 PM Subject: [ ] Re: Salt Hi JR: Didn't we discuss here a few months ago that some people can fix late night cramps with vitamin D supplements? If that would fix cramps equally as well as salt, I would have a strong preference for the vitamin, personally. (Many people are vitamin D deficient. Not many food items I eat contain it. The only reason my food intake of vitamin D modestly exceeds the RDA is because I eat fish almost every day). I also supplement it. fwiw. Rodney. --- In , " " <crjohnr@b...> wrote: > Hi JW: I wondered when you would chime in. Since I buy all my chicken at > Wal-Mart I guess they don't add enough salt to do me much good. Do you > suggest I could bump up my BP by taking even more salt? I may try that. > > I find when my body really needs salt it almost tastes sweet, noticeably > better. After I have adequate salt, it no longer tastes so good. I never add > salt to food for flavor. These days I only make an effort to add salt in > recipes to avoid late night cramps. > > As we've already established, I may not be typical :-). > > JR > -----Original Message----- > From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@e...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [ ] Salt > > > My only argument to adding salt to all food is that it has not been proven > advantageous to health. Those that need salt need to take salt. The article > questions the amounts that are added. Those are far beyond the medical > necessity. The argument that some are " salt-sensitive " is silly, because you > are salt -sensitive. You just require more than the average guy. You can add > salt to food, OTOH, but it doesn't come out easily. Anyway, the case will > probably fail just as tobacco cases failed early on. > > IMO, there should be a limit of say, 100 mgs per 100 kcals. But the > comment from the FDA that there are available non sodium added foods is > silly. There is no non sodium added pork, chicken or turkey at walmart. The > amount of sodium being added is increasing because it sells more product, > period. Imagine if the mfgrs quit putting salt on chips. > > Why don't they have to prove it's safe in order to add it? > > People often get interested in sodium after a stroke. > > Regards. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:19 PM > Subject: RE: [ ] Salt > > > Sorry to hear about your personal BP situation. While mine had crept up > to typical middle aged 130/90 or so along with my middle age > spread. I found aerobic activity helpful (running & basketball). My > mother in her later years was diagnosed with elevated BP and > took diuretics among sundry other medications. The one time I took an > active interest in her medications (after a stroke) I > discovered she had multiple Drs who weren't comparing notes causing some > overlap. > > I didn't experience very low BP, until I started dropping serious > weight. These days it's uncomfortably low and I must be careful > about rising to quickly, etc. > > If you have cited your measurement accurately your " pulse pressure " (the > difference between the high and low number) looks more > concerning than how high the high number which is only slightly elevated > above 120 normal. I believe 40 pts is target for normal > pulse pressure. > > Treating the symptoms passes for common modern medical practice. To that > end diuretics are commonly prescribed to lower BP by > lowering fluid volume. I suspect salt works along a similar vector. I > don't claim any unique expertise in this area as my time is > best spent on what may kill me and BP for me is if anything too low. > > I don't share the general hysteria about most things, and salt is one of > them. Many of our ancestors evolved proximate to shorelines > and likely consumed large amounts of salt. The body is pretty good about > dumping the excess and conserving small amounts when it > needs to. I suspect I have conditioned myself over decades of adlib > eating to expect large amounts and now don't get enough. I also > sweat quite a bit more than your average couch potato. > > As I said in my first post.. no offense to the salt sensitive > hypertensives out there. You probably know who you are. We all must > follow out own best path. > > I also agree that the food industry could use some jacking up but don't > trust my buddies at CSPI to represent my interests. > Comprehensive label information, and perhaps better education regarding > nutrional basics could some day generate the market forces > to improve the food supply. I just believe we (as a culture) are missing > the obvious. We (they) eat too much and haven't yet figured > it out. > > Sorry to be so contrary but it's my nature. > > JR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 JR: perhaps you could elaborate on " sleeping with a bar of soap " ...........or are you joshing? on 3/9/2005 11:16 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: > > There are also people who suggest sleeping with a bar of soap. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 I won't dig up the links because I don't find it credible and didn't save it. People have reported success with placing a bar of soap under the blankets near their legs to prevent night cramps. As I have previously posted I started getting cramping perhaps a year or so ago, so have done quite a bit of web research on the subject. I have seen the soap remedy in a newspaper advice column and repeated on the web, pretty much as anecdotal but with a few reported confirmations. I have yet to find a definitive explanation for the cramping mechanism but find stretching, hydration levels, electrolyte balance all appear related to cramping and each other. Of course we must always be careful about anecdotal reports (including mine). One recent post I read mentioned getting up and drinking warm milk (I think it was). With cramps, it's difficult to parse out the effect of just getting up, walking to the kitchen, standing around for a few minutes, etc... this alone will often allow most mild cramps to pass... perhaps in this case, one could drink beer in the middle of the night and call it a cure :-). I could speculate regarding the bar of soap cure, it may cause extra leg movement or different placement/sleep position that inadvertently stretches the muscles. Since I suspect the electrolyte imbalances may be localized in larger muscles anything that improves local blood flow/circulation may reduce specific local imbalances. I suspect my salt water remedy may be brute force, but as anyone who has suffered from cramps knows they are hard to ignore. I feel confident that salt is an effective specific remedy for " my " situation because of " my " personal experience. Salt has always been successful at providing immediate relief. In some cases where I feel " crampy " for want of better term, often after my Thurs night basketball session, sometimes lasting a few hours, I will start getting cramps in my small fingers. Certainly not as painful as hamstring or calf cramps but an early warning for me... I mix up a few grams of salt water and can almost feel the muscles relax in a wave. Finally, if I proactively supplement salt before symptoms occur, they never do. While this is not definitive per se at least it doesn't suffer from the confounding factor of getting up and walking around in the middle of the night. I don't doubt that the SAD nation gets too much salt, I apparently don't get enough. More soap probably wouldn't hurt some SAD folk either. My one bar of soap is still sitting in the shower, where IMO it belongs. JR -----Original Message----- From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Salt JR: perhaps you could elaborate on " sleeping with a bar of soap " ...........or are you joshing? on 3/9/2005 11:16 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: > > There are also people who suggest sleeping with a bar of soap. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Thanks for the heads up JW. Added salt to beef was not even on my radar screen. Since I just drank a glass of salt water, the added sodium doesn't concern me personally but I still like to know when someone is gaming the system like by adding water to food products. I decided to google this and found a perhaps pertinent link about an anti-microbal solution that is approved by USDA. http://www.nationalprovisioner.com/content.php?s=NP/2004/09 & p=23 So while they (wal-mart) don't have much of a leg to stand on, they can claim some food safety (anti-microbal) benefit. While I suspect they are motivated by the profit motive of reselling the added water solution for the full retail price of meat. I didn't check the fine print so there may also be some relaxed safety handling standards, not to mention longer shelf life, better color, etc. It appears the process was invented by Meyer for their "Fine" meat-like products. I can't even call that stuff meat... :-). I didn't see any studies indicating obvious negative effects from sodium diacetate. It's speculated to be similar to vinegar which has been consumed by humans without apparent problems, afaik. Nothing is ever simple....not even raw beef. JR -----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Salt My only argument to adding salt to all food is that it has not been proven advantageous to health. Those that need salt need to take salt. The article questions the amounts that are added. Those are far beyond the medical necessity. The argument that some are "salt-sensitive" is silly, because you are salt -sensitive. You just require more than the average guy. You can add salt to food, OTOH, but it doesn't come out easily. Anyway, the case will probably fail just as tobacco cases failed early on. IMO, there should be a limit of say, 100 mgs per 100 kcals. But the comment from the FDA that there are available non sodium added foods is silly. There is no non sodium added pork, chicken or turkey at walmart. The amount of sodium being added is increasing because it sells more product, period. Imagine if the mfgrs quit putting salt on chips. Why don't they have to prove it's safe in order to add it? People often get interested in sodium after a stroke. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Hi Don, I remain unbelievably healthy as long as I practice what I have learned here and what I preach. LOL. Thanks for asking. You sound happily and productively busy...great except that I miss your posts. Looking forward to the time when you are able to again respond to our messages. It makes me happy to know that you are achieving so much in your life. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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