Re: salt and high blood pressure

[Guest guest]

Perhaps these dexplantions could be put together for a pageon the groups home page or however you do it.

It could be in a question-answer format and we could get questions and answers from the group. Like a FAQ section that I see on other sites, but do not know how to do.

May your pressure be low!

CE Grim, BS (Chem/Math), MS (Biochem), MD.

Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology

Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics and Hypertension

Published over 230 research papers, chapters and reviews in the area of high blood pressure: epidemiology, history, endocrinology, genetics and physiology.

[Guest guest]

Perhaps these dexplantions could be put together for a pageon the groups home page or however you do it.

It could be in a question-answer format and we could get questions and answers from the group. Like a FAQ section that I see on other sites, but do not know how to do.

May your pressure be low!

CE Grim, BS (Chem/Math), MS (Biochem), MD.

Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology

Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics and Hypertension

Published over 230 research papers, chapters and reviews in the area of high blood pressure: epidemiology, history, endocrinology, genetics and physiology.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Grim. That acutally makes all the questions I do have

come into line. I have learned a lot over the years through

experience but no one has ever explained the entire process to me and

I really do appreciate it. W.

> Thanks for your insightful comments and observations. I will try

to answer

> each and outline the physiology of my responses-please ask for

additional

> clarifications anytime.

> In a message dated 12/16/03 16:04:13, tn_weldys@y... writes:

>

>

> > Dr Grim,

> > Please know first that I am coming at this statement from two very

> > different directions.   This statement is very confusing to me

because

> > as a former PA patient and the mother of one I understand that

sodium

> > and aldosterone walk hand in hand.   But, as an ian, I know

> > daily what is like to be without aldosterone at all and to live on

> > the supplement Florinef.  When I go into a crisis it is from

having

> > too little cortisol in the blood when a stressful event is

happening(

> > illness, severe emotional stress, or some sort of accident). 

> >

> Stress normally activates ACTH production from the pituitary gland

which then

> stimulates the adrenal to increase cortisol AND aldosterone. This

> modulation of cortisol and aldo goes on almost minute to minute

when the brain,

> pituitary and adrenals glands are working normal. Aldosterone

production is also

> controlled by the enzyme renin which comes from the kidney. The

brain also can

> send signals to the kidney to make more or less renin. Renin acts

on another

> large protein in the blood(made in the liver) called renin

substrate or

> angiotensinogen (AGT). Renin cleaves a 10 amino acid polypeptide

from AGT. This

> is called AI or angiotensin one. Another enzyme in the lungs and

blood

> cleaves another 2 amino acid peptide from AI. This 8 unit

octapeptide (8 amino

> acids) is called AII (angiotensin two). This is the most potent

vasopressor

> known (makes blood vessels constrict and raises blood pressure).

AII also

> stimulates the adrenal gland to make aldosterone (ALDO) the most

potent salt and

> water retaining hormone in the body. The ALDO acts throughout the

body:

> makes the kidney retain sodium and excrete potassium (K) in the

urine, the sweat

> glands retain sodium and excrete K, and the gut to retain Na and

excrete K and

> the salivary glands to retain sodium and excrete K.

>

> The level of renin and aldo also varies from minute to minute and

therefore

> regulates BP and salt and K balance.

>

> If the body does not make ALDO then one loses sodium in the

kidneys, sweat,

> salvia and stools and if not replaced will die in a matter of days

depending on

> the heat and water stress of the situation and the salt intake.

Death can

> come from very low BP (shock) or too high of a K. However, one can

overcome the

> fall in blood pressure and high K by eating huge amounts of salt-

children have

> been reported to eat salt by the handful when they have this

problem.

>

> Classic ian patients, who have lost all adrenal gland

function (in the

> old days from tuberculosis,now from surgery) will also get very

dark skin

> because the pituitary gland (which recognizes that the cortisol

is too low)

> puts out large amounts of ACTH which can be broken down in to MT

(melanocyte

> stimulating hormone) which makes the dark granules in all of our

skin melanocytes

> spread out and the skin can become very dark. If cortisol is

given back the

> skin will become lighter.

>

> Cortisol is critical to almost all of the body's cell functions and

a

> deficiency in this also leads to shock and heart failure and death.

>

> Where the body normally varies the amount of cortisol aldo from

minute to

> minute this is not possible when the adrenals are not there.

>

> I have my patients carry a syringe that contains injectable

cortisol in case

> the under go an injury or severe stress such as diarrhea. They

must also

> wear a bracelet and have a card in their wallet or purse that

states they have

> 's disease as any ER person will know the first thing you do

is to give

> the a shot of cortisol immediately and start an IV infusion of

cortisol (or

> cortisol like drug). Most of the no aldo effect can be taken care

of by giving

> lots of IV salt-if the K is high then Florinef may also be

needed.

>

> High doses of cortisol act like aldosterone also and can cause K

wasting, HTN

> etc. This is called Cushing's syndrome when it is caused by a

pituitary tumor

> that makes too much ACTH which drives the adrenal to make too much

cortisol.

>

>

>

>

>

> .

> > This will cause my body to call on the aldosterone to keep my BP

up

> > high enough to work out whatever the problem is. 

> >

> The problem is that you cannot make aldo with no adrenals.

>

> > The problem lies in

> > when the stress is caused by illness or environmental changes that

> > cause the body to dehydrate.  When the body dehydrates it will at

> > some point begin dumping potassium. 

> >

> The K will be dumped in the urine only if the blood K increases.

The K can

> also be lost by diarrhea or vomiting as Na and K are in saliva and

the stomach

> and the stool.

>

> > Whether through vomiting or

> > diareah (sp), it happens.  Without potassium then the sodium is

> > useless.  In my daughters and my cases of PA we were next to

nothing

> > in the K department. 

> >

>

> This is the classical way the Dx of PA is made. Low K for no

apparent

> reason.

>

>

> > Her meds keep it up but one good illness or day

> > in the sun will suck it right out.  Same here.  So how is it that

the

> > sodium has a greater affect than the potassium on the BP. 

> >

> K is almost all inside the cell. Na is almost all outside the

cell in the

> blood and tissue fluid.

>

> Changes in K do not affect BP much, but Na will very rapidly.

>

> > Another point is that the amount of sodium that I must take in in

the

> > summer

> > is nausiating.   In addition to the Florinef which holds the

> > aldostrone level good for most of the year will not do it alone in

> > the summer.  I must supplement my diet with high doses of

sodium.   I

> > can eat an entire jar of pickles and then add salt to the juice

and

> > drink it in the summer and not have a problem at all with BP.  

If I

> > am lucky it will get over 100/70.   So I personally think that for

> > some here that regardless of the sodium levels ingested  it will

> > affect their BP very little. 

> >

> The problem you describe is " right on " in the summer. You are

losing more

> sodium in your sweat and must replace it. The problem is exactly

as you

> describek if you try to take in enough sodium to keep in balance

you will become

> nauseated. I some experiments we have done in give normal

subjects 1200 mM

> of sodium a day (about 22,500 mg of sodium or about 22 teaspoons

of salt a

> day) per day we have to give part of it by vein as they could not

stomach that

> much salt-it was thrown up or they got diarrhea.

>

> Many patients who are taking BP meds for high BP will not need as

much during

> the summer and some can stop their diuretics altogether during the

summer-it

> depend son how hot it is and the humidity.

>

> Therefore if their is no aldosterone (or Florinef) it is not

possible to take

> in enough salt to stay alive if the weather is hot or one is

vomiting or

> having diarrhea.

>

>

> > It is an educated guess and nothing

> > more though based on 28 years experience living it.   PS I know

that

> > it is more technical than that but I have tried to make it easy

for

> > everyone to understand as it is hard enough learning about your

own

> > disease much less somone elses.    W. 

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> May your pressure be low!

>

> CE Grim, BS (Chem/Math), MS (Biochem), MD.

> Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology

> Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics and Hypertension

> Published over 230 research papers, chapters and reviews in the

area of high

> blood pressure: epidemiology, history, endocrinology, genetics and

physiology.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Grim. That acutally makes all the questions I do have

come into line. I have learned a lot over the years through

experience but no one has ever explained the entire process to me and

I really do appreciate it. W.

> Thanks for your insightful comments and observations. I will try

to answer

> each and outline the physiology of my responses-please ask for

additional

> clarifications anytime.

> In a message dated 12/16/03 16:04:13, tn_weldys@y... writes:

>

>

> > Dr Grim,

> > Please know first that I am coming at this statement from two very

> > different directions.   This statement is very confusing to me

because

> > as a former PA patient and the mother of one I understand that

sodium

> > and aldosterone walk hand in hand.   But, as an ian, I know

> > daily what is like to be without aldosterone at all and to live on

> > the supplement Florinef.  When I go into a crisis it is from

having

> > too little cortisol in the blood when a stressful event is

happening(

> > illness, severe emotional stress, or some sort of accident). 

> >

> Stress normally activates ACTH production from the pituitary gland

which then

> stimulates the adrenal to increase cortisol AND aldosterone. This

> modulation of cortisol and aldo goes on almost minute to minute

when the brain,

> pituitary and adrenals glands are working normal. Aldosterone

production is also

> controlled by the enzyme renin which comes from the kidney. The

brain also can

> send signals to the kidney to make more or less renin. Renin acts

on another

> large protein in the blood(made in the liver) called renin

substrate or

> angiotensinogen (AGT). Renin cleaves a 10 amino acid polypeptide

from AGT. This

> is called AI or angiotensin one. Another enzyme in the lungs and

blood

> cleaves another 2 amino acid peptide from AI. This 8 unit

octapeptide (8 amino

> acids) is called AII (angiotensin two). This is the most potent

vasopressor

> known (makes blood vessels constrict and raises blood pressure).

AII also

> stimulates the adrenal gland to make aldosterone (ALDO) the most

potent salt and

> water retaining hormone in the body. The ALDO acts throughout the

body:

> makes the kidney retain sodium and excrete potassium (K) in the

urine, the sweat

> glands retain sodium and excrete K, and the gut to retain Na and

excrete K and

> the salivary glands to retain sodium and excrete K.

>

> The level of renin and aldo also varies from minute to minute and

therefore

> regulates BP and salt and K balance.

>

> If the body does not make ALDO then one loses sodium in the

kidneys, sweat,

> salvia and stools and if not replaced will die in a matter of days

depending on

> the heat and water stress of the situation and the salt intake.

Death can

> come from very low BP (shock) or too high of a K. However, one can

overcome the

> fall in blood pressure and high K by eating huge amounts of salt-

children have

> been reported to eat salt by the handful when they have this

problem.

>

> Classic ian patients, who have lost all adrenal gland

function (in the

> old days from tuberculosis,now from surgery) will also get very

dark skin

> because the pituitary gland (which recognizes that the cortisol

is too low)

> puts out large amounts of ACTH which can be broken down in to MT

(melanocyte

> stimulating hormone) which makes the dark granules in all of our

skin melanocytes

> spread out and the skin can become very dark. If cortisol is

given back the

> skin will become lighter.

>

> Cortisol is critical to almost all of the body's cell functions and

a

> deficiency in this also leads to shock and heart failure and death.

>

> Where the body normally varies the amount of cortisol aldo from

minute to

> minute this is not possible when the adrenals are not there.

>

> I have my patients carry a syringe that contains injectable

cortisol in case

> the under go an injury or severe stress such as diarrhea. They

must also

> wear a bracelet and have a card in their wallet or purse that

states they have

> 's disease as any ER person will know the first thing you do

is to give

> the a shot of cortisol immediately and start an IV infusion of

cortisol (or

> cortisol like drug). Most of the no aldo effect can be taken care

of by giving

> lots of IV salt-if the K is high then Florinef may also be

needed.

>

> High doses of cortisol act like aldosterone also and can cause K

wasting, HTN

> etc. This is called Cushing's syndrome when it is caused by a

pituitary tumor

> that makes too much ACTH which drives the adrenal to make too much

cortisol.

>

>

>

>

>

> .

> > This will cause my body to call on the aldosterone to keep my BP

up

> > high enough to work out whatever the problem is. 

> >

> The problem is that you cannot make aldo with no adrenals.

>

> > The problem lies in

> > when the stress is caused by illness or environmental changes that

> > cause the body to dehydrate.  When the body dehydrates it will at

> > some point begin dumping potassium. 

> >

> The K will be dumped in the urine only if the blood K increases.

The K can

> also be lost by diarrhea or vomiting as Na and K are in saliva and

the stomach

> and the stool.

>

> > Whether through vomiting or

> > diareah (sp), it happens.  Without potassium then the sodium is

> > useless.  In my daughters and my cases of PA we were next to

nothing

> > in the K department. 

> >

>

> This is the classical way the Dx of PA is made. Low K for no

apparent

> reason.

>

>

> > Her meds keep it up but one good illness or day

> > in the sun will suck it right out.  Same here.  So how is it that

the

> > sodium has a greater affect than the potassium on the BP. 

> >

> K is almost all inside the cell. Na is almost all outside the

cell in the

> blood and tissue fluid.

>

> Changes in K do not affect BP much, but Na will very rapidly.

>

> > Another point is that the amount of sodium that I must take in in

the

> > summer

> > is nausiating.   In addition to the Florinef which holds the

> > aldostrone level good for most of the year will not do it alone in

> > the summer.  I must supplement my diet with high doses of

sodium.   I

> > can eat an entire jar of pickles and then add salt to the juice

and

> > drink it in the summer and not have a problem at all with BP.  

If I

> > am lucky it will get over 100/70.   So I personally think that for

> > some here that regardless of the sodium levels ingested  it will

> > affect their BP very little. 

> >

> The problem you describe is " right on " in the summer. You are

losing more

> sodium in your sweat and must replace it. The problem is exactly

as you

> describek if you try to take in enough sodium to keep in balance

you will become

> nauseated. I some experiments we have done in give normal

subjects 1200 mM

> of sodium a day (about 22,500 mg of sodium or about 22 teaspoons

of salt a

> day) per day we have to give part of it by vein as they could not

stomach that

> much salt-it was thrown up or they got diarrhea.

>

> Many patients who are taking BP meds for high BP will not need as

much during

> the summer and some can stop their diuretics altogether during the

summer-it

> depend son how hot it is and the humidity.

>

> Therefore if their is no aldosterone (or Florinef) it is not

possible to take

> in enough salt to stay alive if the weather is hot or one is

vomiting or

> having diarrhea.

>

>

> > It is an educated guess and nothing

> > more though based on 28 years experience living it.   PS I know

that

> > it is more technical than that but I have tried to make it easy

for

> > everyone to understand as it is hard enough learning about your

own

> > disease much less somone elses.    W. 

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> May your pressure be low!

>

> CE Grim, BS (Chem/Math), MS (Biochem), MD.

> Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology

> Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics and Hypertension

> Published over 230 research papers, chapters and reviews in the

area of high

> blood pressure: epidemiology, history, endocrinology, genetics and

physiology.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/12/2008 9:10:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

knrkelley@... writes:

I hope you don't mind my asking. My best friend is obese, on blood

pressure medication, and has told to adhere to a low-salt, low-fat

diet (:<) grrrr! A good thing is that the doctor actually said " low-

salt " is 1 teaspoon a day, which is close to what Bee recommends.

Is there a limit on the amount of celtic sea salt we can use? I don't

remember reading that.

Thanks,

Tammy

**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,

plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)

[Guest guest]

Hi, Miz Violet,

I'm glad you're back. You and your husband have been in my prayers,

and I'm glad that he is able to see a difference when he eats healing

foods. I would find it very hard, even though I would do it, to care

for my husband if he wasn't willing to eat Real Food.

re: salt and high blood pressure--I have heard Bee say many times

that good sea salt actually helps regulate blood pressure. Have you

seen these articles?

http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/salt1.php

http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/salt3.php

http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/salt5.php

http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/treat13.php

I am just wondering why you use the Concentrace instead of the salt,

why you think the salt causes high blood pressure? Do you use the

large-crystal sea salt? If not, would you be willing to try it (per

Bee's recommendations, above)?

I hope you don't mind my asking. My best friend is obese, on blood

pressure medication, and has told to adhere to a low-salt, low-fat

diet (:<) grrrr! A good thing is that the doctor actually said " low-

salt " is 1 teaspoon a day, which is close to what Bee recommends.

But he said nothing about using good quality sea salt. I'd like to

be able to say, " Look, these people on my group saw their blood

pressure go down with salt and fat. "

Thanks for your response, if you have energy to do so.

Rhe

> I don't use salt in my electrolyte drink now. I use the Concentrace

drops and I don't get high blood pressure from the salt.

>  

> Today my husband decided to stop drinking colas all day. He is

drinking the lemon drink with soda water. There has been good changes

already. He napped quietly without his chest heaving for breath. He

is more cheerful and working steadily since waking up. HOORAY! I grow

so tired of having all the duties placed on me.

>  

> Have a great day. Mz ViOlet

[Guest guest]

>

>

> In a message dated 9/12/2008 9:10:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

> knrkelley@... writes:

>

> I hope you don't mind my asking. My best friend is obese, on blood

> pressure medication, and has told to adhere to a low-salt, low-fat

> diet (:<) grrrr! A good thing is that the doctor actually

said " low-

> salt " is 1 teaspoon a day, which is close to what Bee recommends.

>

>

>

> Is there a limit on the amount of celtic sea salt we can use? I

don't

> remember reading that.

Hi Tammy. The limit is 1 1/2 teaspoons per day.

Bee